# Patriotism, a "meaningless ritual"? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 18, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895 "2010-05-18T16:12:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/41 "2010-05-19T06:23:03Z")
> [@dhkendall](#): > > I think most Americans pretend to sing it. It doesn’t help that it’s hard to find a key that is within most people’s range. The best I can pull of is G, but that low G is pretty low at the beginning. Did I mention I love to sing? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/42 "2010-05-19T06:57:49Z")
Well, the whole hand on the heart thing isn’t done here, but I do stand and sing. I also have a flag in my window (I put it up for Independence Day three years ago, and forgot to take it down; at this point, removing it would be making a point I’m not interested in making). ---
**Author:** ![Electric\_Warrior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@Electric\_Warrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Electric_Warrior)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/43 "2010-05-19T13:39:00Z")
The only time I ever hear the anthem live is at sporting events (which before this year were always Baltimore Orioles or recently, Washington Nationals), and I usually stand with my hand on my heart and sing along, as does the rest of the crowd. I attended a White Sox game here in Chicago and no one was putting their hand on their heart or singing, so I just stood. Patriotism is important to me. I believe in the ideals of this country. I believe in uniting people from vastly different backgrounds and cultures under the American flag. Like **olivesmarch4th** , I am proud of the beauty of the country and I’m also proud of its rich cultural heritage. (I’m somewhat involved in the folk music scene which always makes me feel very patriotic.) I don’t like the pledge of allegiance because I would rather not pledge allegiance to the government, nor do I think we are a nation under God (even though I believe in one God myself). ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/44 "2010-05-19T14:02:39Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > Oh, because he was chiding **ivan astikov** , who is British. Although maybe **Oakminster** thinks British people aren’t patriotic enough, I don’t know. I won’t presume to speak for him, just a little confused. I am American. Thought \*\*Ivan \*\*was, too. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/45 "2010-05-19T14:09:00Z")
I stand, don’t put my hand over my heart, haven’t said the pledge in years. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/46 "2010-05-19T14:11:19Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > I stand, don’t put my hand over my heart, haven’t said the pledge in years. This, love our country, don’t put my hand over my heart (never even heard of that until recently, but do remove my hat. I sing along with the national anthem, even, just not the hand over the heart. Pledge of Allegiance squicks me out a bit, though. Smacks too much of McCarthyism. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/47 "2010-05-19T14:18:26Z")
I’ll remove my hat, and be respectful, but nothing else. I’m not into flag fetishism (which is distinct from patriotism). ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/48 "2010-05-19T14:26:30Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > It is. To the point that I once had a long, drawn-out and circular argument with someone on this very point. Whoever it was couldn’t grasp that I only feel pride in my actual accomplishments. Having not done anything to be American other than being born, I don’t feel particularly proud of it. (I do feel extremely lucky to be American, though.) I guess I look at the concept of national pride very differently. While I did happen to be born here by my own good fortune, I do believe this country is something I have helped to accomplish. I am not a separate entity from the place I was born; I have been shaped by it and I have shaped it myself. I have felt a sense of responsibility for the people and the systems that make this place run. I have paid taxes and formed relationships and refrained from throwing garbage out the window. My part may be small – infinitesimal, even – but I take some degree of ownership for this place I live, ergo, I have no qualms about being proud of it. To imply that it’s silly to be proud of your country to me implies passive existence rather than active participation. I do not think, **Kyla** , you are a passive member of society. In fact, I know that, like me, you have a passion for policy. What you have done is spend two years busting your ass for a degree because, probably even more than the average person, you are willing to take ownership for the society in which you live. And just as much as you may feel a sense of responsibility for this country’s flaws (I don’t know about you, but I certainly do), you have the right to feel proud of its achievements. Because–and this is the key–_you have helped to build your country_. And really that’s what patriotism is about – the recognition that for hundreds of years, people have felt the same responsibility and taken the same ownership and felt the same pride in their contribution and that’s how collective effort can create amazing things. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/49 "2010-05-19T14:33:51Z")
Entirely depends upon the country. Some countries, such as mine, have an awful lot to be proud of. I can’t see why anyone would be a patriotic Uruguayan, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/50 "2010-05-19T15:24:02Z")
I don’t do the pledge. No how, no way. But I do stand for the anthem, hand over heart, etc. I think it’s nice to sing along. There’s nothing objectionable in it and I find it moving. I also love “America the Beautiful” and know all the verses, but you can keep “God Bless America”, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/51 "2010-05-19T15:37:32Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > I guess I look at the concept of national pride very differently. While I did happen to be born here by my own good fortune, I do believe this country is something I have helped to accomplish. I am not a separate entity from the place I was born; I have been shaped by it and I have shaped it myself. I have felt a sense of responsibility for the people and the systems that make this place run. I have paid taxes and formed relationships and refrained from throwing garbage out the window. My part may be small – infinitesimal, even – but I take some degree of ownership for this place I live, ergo, I have no qualms about being proud of it. To imply that it’s silly to be proud of your country to me implies passive existence rather than active participation. And while I agree with this, I also want to point out that the feeling can be the same, no matter the country. Comments like this: > [@](#): > > I can’t see why anyone would be a patriotic Uruguayan, for example. make me slightly mad. And heck, I’m not from Uruguay, anywhere close, nor know anybody close to me from there. Like I said before, the things mentioned in the poll are not what I would consider “patriotism”, and I dislike that it is interpreted in such a superficial, ritualistic way. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/52 "2010-05-19T15:54:58Z")
> [@dhkendall](#): > > I did recall this morning, though, that some might consider standing for the national anthem, removing your hat, hand on heart, facing the flag, etc., as another “meaningless ritual”. Sure, you’re a citizen of your country and all, but what’s the point of actually doing the things that I outlined earlier, one might argue. It’s a meaningless ritual but I participate out of respect, except for the hand on heart bit. Personally, I’ve always felt the American treatment of the national anthem - bringing in some _American Idol_ also-ran to sing it - makes it an even less meaningless ritual. Get a band, play the tune, and let the _people_ sing the fucking thing. That’s how it’s done. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/53 "2010-05-19T16:12:36Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > I do not think, **Kyla** , you are a passive member of society. In fact, I know that, like me, you have a passion for policy. What you have done is spend two years busting your ass for a degree because, probably even more than the average person, you are willing to take ownership for the society in which you live. And just as much as you may feel a sense of responsibility for this country’s flaws (I don’t know about you, but I certainly do), you have the right to feel proud of its achievements. Because–and this is the key–_you have helped to build your country_. I guess I’m just more cynical and pessimistic than you are, **olives**. I don’t think that anything I’ve personally done has had any effect on our country at all, and that even with the fancy schmancy degree I’ll probably never even get (I still have to take two classes and right now people are not making this easy for me; did I mention I was pessimistic?) I doubt that will change. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/54 "2010-05-19T17:41:45Z")
> [@Tahssa](#): > > My wang has had a bigger influence on me than most things and yes I do put my hand on my wang when I am singing praises to it. Is there a point you are making in there somewhere? > [@Oakminster](#): > > Buncha guys fought and died to protect the freedoms we enjoy in this country. Maybe you could put your hand over your heart and think about that during the anthem sometime. They didn’t do it for me or anyone else alive now. The vast majority of those who “fought for our freedom” did it because they were forced to, or had nothing better to be doing. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/55 "2010-05-19T17:43:39Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > make me slightly mad. And heck, I’m not from Uruguay, anywhere close, nor know anybody close to me from there. > > Like I said before, the things mentioned in the poll are not what I would consider “patriotism”, and I dislike that it is interpreted in such a superficial, ritualistic way. I first read “Ugandan.” And I thought that in some ways it’s true that they haven’t had the best history, what with a murdering dictator and all, but I still thought it was kinda a dick comment. Now that I know it says Uruguay, wtf? It’s kind of like picking on Canada I guess. They could be proud of being the nicest, least corrupt, most peaceful country in South America. Of having an affluent and highly educated population. Of gaining independence after fighting off Spain and Brazil. They had a short period of military rule, but it was cast off through peaceful protest and minimal bloodshed. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/56 "2010-05-19T18:03:12Z")
I wasn’t picking on Uruguay, there’s nothing wrong with Uruguay, there’s just not anything there to really be proud of. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/57 "2010-05-19T18:04:21Z")
I’m going to get a list of countries from Wikipedia and list the ones I think are worth being proud of ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/58 "2010-05-19T18:09:26Z")
Right, here’s my list. I don’t know what the numbers signify, they were just part of the list and it would be a hassle to remove them: Argentina 6 Australia 33 Brazil 10 Chile 8 China 54 Egypt 4 Estonia 2 France 91 Germany 89 Ghana 2 Greece 10 Hong Kong 6 India 32 Iran 18 Israel 7 Italy 57 Japan 73 Korea 59 Latvia 4 Lebanon 1 Luxemburg 1 Nepal 1 Netherlands 16 New Zealand 8 Nigeria 7 Pakistan 17 Panama 1 Peru 2 Poland 12 Republic of Ireland 11 Russia 42 Singapore 3 South Africa 21 Spain 69 Sweden 27 Switzerland 11 Thailand 20 Turkey 16 United Kingdom 74 United States of America 638 Yugoslavia 1 ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/59 "2010-05-19T18:21:20Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > They didn’t do it for me or anyone else alive now. The vast majority of those who “fought for our freedom” did it because they were forced to, or had nothing better to be doing. That’s (checks which forum this is in…damn…toning things down accordingly) not correct on several levels. Without the sacrifices of those guys you so casually dismiss, you’d probably be speaking German today…or wondering if the German Empire was going to sail over from France to invade your country. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/60 "2010-05-19T18:27:42Z")
That list of countries was incomplete, it turns out. Please also add: Bhutan Botswana Ethiopia [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895.md?page=4)