# Patriotism, a "meaningless ritual"? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 18, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895 "2010-05-18T16:12:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/61 "2010-05-19T18:28:45Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > That’s (checks which forum this is in…damn…toning things down accordingly) not correct on several levels. Without the sacrifices of those guys you so casually dismiss, you’d probably be speaking German today…or wondering if the German Empire was going to sail over from France to invade your country. Strictly speaking, if we’d done nothing at all it is highly unlikely that Hitler would ever have declared war against us. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/62 "2010-05-19T18:33:47Z")
I only do enough meaningless participation to avoid the “deliberate jerky avoidance” perception. It also makes a huge difference whether I’m directing my action toward an object (e.g. flag) or a concept (e.g. deity) or a person (e.g. applauding a performance) Prayers: I stand politely, but don’t pray/sing along or bow my head (atheist, for the record) Anthems: Stand politely if everyone else is, or go hit the bathroom or concessions. I don’t do the singing or hand-over-heart. Speeches/Performances: Applause, cheer, and clap where appropriate, since it’s of perceived value to the performer. Paycheck-earners: I’ll do everything without question or complaint. This includes saluting officers, handshaking customers, learning obligatory foreign introductions, attending bullshit morale-building workshops, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/63 "2010-05-19T18:38:36Z")
> [@Angry Lurker](#): > > Strictly speaking, if we’d done nothing at all it is highly unlikely that Hitler would ever have declared war against us. You want to live in a country that would stand by while a genocidal madman steamrolls Europe and camps out almost in your own backyard? With lots of really big guns pointed over the English Channel? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/64 "2010-05-19T18:50:42Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > You want to live in a country that would stand by while a genocidal madman steamrolls Europe and camps out almost in your own backyard? With lots of really big guns pointed over the English Channel? No, but I might feel differently if I knew precisely how history would have panned out. (In the hypothetical) ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/65 "2010-05-19T18:53:02Z")
On the other hand, I am certain we should never have entered WWI, without which of course Hitler would never have come to power in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/66 "2010-05-19T19:02:13Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > That’s (checks which forum this is in…damn…toning things down accordingly) not correct on several levels. Without the sacrifices of those guys you so casually dismiss, you’d probably be speaking German today…or wondering if the German Empire was going to sail over from France to invade your country. Stop trying to make out that they donned their uniforms with noble intent. They were conscripted by a government who cared more about political posturing than they did about those it was sending off to fight. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/67 "2010-05-19T19:09:23Z")
I’ll stand for the anthem out of respect for those who care about such things. I will never again recite the pledge as long as I live, I think it is pointless rote. I don’t do the hand over heart thing. Whether I do or don’t isn’t going to bring back those that died in the various wars over the years. If you think they died for our freedoms, that includes the right not to put your hand over your heart. If you don’t think I have the right not to do the hand over heart thing, then you aren’t too big on freedom, are you? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/68 "2010-05-19T19:13:39Z")
> [@Angry Lurker](#): > > I’m going to get a list of countries from Wikipedia and list the ones I think are worth being proud of Right, so it is just your opinion. You’re not from those countries, you’ve probably not visit most of them. You do not get to decide which country should their citizens be proud of or not, other than express your opinion, which IMHO, is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/69 "2010-05-19T19:15:28Z")
I take it he didn’t mention yours? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/70 "2010-05-19T19:20:19Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Stop trying to make out that they donned their uniforms with noble intent. They were conscripted by a government who cared more about political posturing than they did about those it was sending off to fight. Stop trying to make out that they didn’t have noble intent. You haven’t served. You don’t know. I have served. I know why I put the uniform on. I know why many of the guys I served with put it on. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/71 "2010-05-19T20:25:24Z")
Yugoslavians should be proud? Have you forgotten Rhodesians, Prussians, and Czechoslavaks? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/72 "2010-05-19T20:44:20Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I take it he didn’t mention yours? I just noticed the list now, thanks to you, and realized that nope, my place is not there. 😉 But my complain about his view was based on a remark he said about Uruguay. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/73 "2010-05-19T21:03:57Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Stop trying to make out that they didn’t have noble intent. You haven’t served. You don’t know. I have served. I know why I put the uniform on. I know why many of the guys I served with put it on. So, there are no people who joined the military because the prospects in Nowheresville, USA or Shitsville UK were that limited that travelling hundreds of miles to kill The Hun seemed like a good thing? If you say so. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/74 "2010-05-19T21:22:57Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > Right, so it is just your opinion. You’re not from those countries, you’ve probably not visit most of them. You do not get to decide which country should their citizens be proud of or not, other than express your opinion, which IMHO, is wrong. I’ve been to all but 5. thelurkinghorror, Yugoslavia was on the list I used, which turns out to have [been a list of good chemistry websites](http://www-jmg.ch.cam.ac.uk/data/c2k/c2knation.html). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/75 "2010-05-19T22:36:41Z")
Which Korea did you mean? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/76 "2010-05-19T23:15:00Z")
Don’t blame me, blame Cambridge! Anyway, as a nit pick I’m fairly sure that both Koreas believe there to be only one Korea. Ha! Technicality! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/77 "2010-05-19T23:28:32Z")
They’ve got separate flags, separate governments and separate votes in the UN. Technicality overruled. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/78 "2010-05-19T23:54:18Z")
The only thing I can think of is that it hasn’t been updated since 2003, when the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia became the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro. Still, its “real” name was Serbia from 1992-present. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/79 "2010-05-20T00:08:13Z")
Clearly, there have been some men who served in the US armed forces because they were forced to and didn’t want to be there at all, and just as clearly, there have been some who served because they considered it a noble and righteous calling. How does an absolute statement either way make sense? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/80 "2010-05-20T00:36:58Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > The only thing I can think of is that it hasn’t been updated since 2003, when the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia became the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro. Still, its “real” name was Serbia from 1992-present. In any case, Yugoslavia as a whole was something to be more proud of than any individual baltic state. My views are objective, not necessarily reflected by how the population feels of course. What happened after Tito’s death pretty demonstrates that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895.md?page=5)