# Patriotism, a "meaningless ritual"? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 18, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895 "2010-05-18T16:12:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/81 "2010-05-20T01:01:07Z")
My post was more a comment on the error in that website than anything you said more recently. There are still some people out there who consider themselves Yugoslavs. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/82 "2010-05-20T02:04:16Z")
> [@Angry Lurker](#): > > I’m going to get a list of countries from Wikipedia and list the ones I think are worth being proud of Leaving aside that I’m not necessarily an advocate for feeling proud to have born in your native country… Am I understanding you right that you’d be proud to be a scion of Latvia, but not Lithuania? Why, pray tell? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/83 "2010-05-20T02:18:08Z")
> [@Angry Lurker](#): > > My views are objective, not necessarily reflected by how the population feels of course. What happened after Tito’s death pretty demonstrates that. No, your views are subjective, and not anymore objective than, you know, the people who actually were born, live, and work in their countries. It is some sort of weird perverse reversal of this thread. Even though my pride is directed to a different country than **olive’s** , I agree with her first paragraph. That feeling is not unique to a single country or group of countries. That feeling can be present everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/84 "2010-05-20T06:54:34Z")
No, they are objective because I have been dispassionate and applied unbiased criteria. You can complain they are arbitrary perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/85 "2010-05-20T07:09:50Z")
> [@Angry Lurker](#): > > In any case, Yugoslavia as a whole was something to be more proud of than any individual baltic state. The \*Baltic \*states are Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania. The states that formerly made up Yugoslavia are \*Balkan \*states. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/86 "2010-05-20T08:16:08Z")
Another vote for the third option. I don’t particularly care for group rituals of any kind but I try to be polite; e.g. stand but not sing. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/87 "2010-05-20T09:04:06Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > The \*Baltic \*states are Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania. The states that formerly made up Yugoslavia are \*Balkan \*states. I haven’t been getting a lot of sleep recently, mea culpa. ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/88 "2010-05-20T12:39:06Z")
It’s not a meaningless ritual to me. Rituals in general are meaningful to me as reaffirmations of group membership identity, both to oneself and to the group. I always stand for the anthem, remove headgear and (in general) sing the anthem as well. I don’t always do the hand-on-heart thing, except when I’m holding a hat I’ve removed, in which case the hat does go over the heart more often than not. But if I’m bare-headed I think more often I hold my hands together behind my back. I can’t remember the last time I recited the Pledge of Allegiance, but would do so in the given context without hesitation, right down to saying “under God” even though technically I don’t believe in such a thing. Because we ARE a “nation under God”, whether I like it or not it is a fact of the society I live in. I’d prefer the government to be 100% secular and that clause (not original and inserted in the 1950s I think) to be dropped from the Pledge, but I won’t let that get in the way of declaring and reaffirming my identity as an American. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/89 "2010-05-21T10:25:06Z")
Sporting events are a more unifying force than Nationhood. How many of those people who fill out the larger stadiums do you think would stop going to the game if they stopped doing the national anthem? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/90 "2010-05-21T13:30:53Z")
> [@robardin](#): > > I can’t remember the last time I recited the Pledge of Allegiance, but would do so in the given context without hesitation, right down to saying “under God” even though technically I don’t believe in such a thing. Because we ARE a “nation under God”, whether I like it or not it is a fact of the society I live in. So God exists because public opinion in the US says he does? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/91 "2010-05-21T18:18:36Z")
I answered “no” because there wasn’t a “Aw, Hell, No! Catch me doing anything that shows support for the State” option. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/92 "2010-05-22T03:14:33Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > I don’t do the pledge. No how, no way. > > But I do stand for the anthem, hand over heart, etc. I think it’s nice to sing along. There’s nothing objectionable in it and I find it moving. I also love “America the Beautiful” and know all the verses, but you can keep “God Bless America”, thanks. Are you one of those “sensitive” atheists who go catatonic at the “G”-word? :rolleyes: Anyways I do all the patriotic ritual not because its ritual but because I stand for the principles of the American Republic. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/93 "2010-05-22T06:43:05Z")
The whole nine yards. I still remember the few stories of WWII that I had to beat out of my father toward the end of his life. When I see the flag I see he entire history of what went into making it. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/94 "2010-05-22T06:54:52Z")
What **Olives** said. I \<3 America and feel the little rituals are the least I can do, and I enjoy them. ---
**Author:** ![PsyXe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@PsyXe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PsyXe)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/95 "2010-05-22T22:17:15Z")
I do all the patriotic stuff, including waving a national flag out of my car window for the World Cup! To me it shows respect and solidarity, as well as (must be odd for you Brits) non-racism. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I answered “no” because there wasn’t a “Aw, Hell, No! Catch me doing anything that shows support for the State” option. Let me guess, cynical and absolutely apolitical? But do you really not even sing the national anthem? ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/96 "2010-05-23T00:38:48Z")
I stand quietly and respectfully during the pledge and national anthem, and I do the same for the rituals of any country. I don’t attach any particular significance to the rituals, but I don’t feel a need to antagonize those who do. > [@PsyXe](#): > > Let me guess, cynical and absolutely apolitical? But do you really not even sing the national anthem? ☹ I believe **Mr. Dibble** is South African. Given the history of that nation, his position strikes me as anything _but_ apolitical. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/97 "2010-05-23T02:02:14Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > I stand quietly and respectfully during the pledge and national anthem, and I do the same for the rituals of any country. I don’t attach any particular significance to the rituals, but I don’t feel a need to antagonize those who do. > I believe **Mr. Dibble** is South African. Given the history of that nation, his position strikes me as anything _but_ apolitical. Considering the current government is being run not like a nation that was considered a part of the civilized world for the last hundred years he has even more justification. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/98 "2010-05-23T02:24:33Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Considering the current government is being run not like a nation that was considered a part of the civilized world for the last hundred years he has even more justification. I… don’t even know how to take this. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/99 "2010-05-23T02:54:44Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Considering the current government is being run not like a nation that was considered a part of the civilized world for the last hundred years he has even more justification. Institutionalized racism is civilization and full participatory democracy isn’t? Are we living in bizarro world now? I must be misunderstanding **Curtis** ’s intent. Come back and clarify, **Curtis**. (Not that I’m a fan of Jacob Zuma, who strikes me as a total scumbag.) ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/100 "2010-05-23T03:06:17Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > Come back and clarify, **Curtis**. On second thought, don’t, **Curtis**. I’m sure I’m not the only one who’s sick of seeing threads derailed because other participants have these naive notions about how worthwhile (or even, I dare say, how interesting) it is to indulge some of our more notorious posters and their hobbyhorses. So, don’t come back and clarify, **Curtis**. Start your own thread if you like, but I’ve enjoyed this thread and I have no interest in the all too boring-and-predictable outcome of **Kyla** ’s invitation to go off topic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895.md?page=6)