# Patriotism, a "meaningless ritual"? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 18, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895 "2010-05-18T16:12:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/101 "2010-05-23T07:02:10Z")
> [@Angry Lurker](#): > > No, they are objective because I have been dispassionate and applied unbiased criteria. And those criteria are . . . ? ---
**Author:** ![PsyXe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@PsyXe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PsyXe)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/102 "2010-05-23T08:26:16Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > I believe **Mr. Dibble** is South African. Given the history of that nation, his position strikes me as anything _but_ apolitical. Um, yes. :rolleyes: > [@Kyla](#): > > Institutionalized racism is civilization and full participatory democracy isn’t? Are we living in bizarro world now? I must be misunderstanding **Curtis** ’s intent. Come back and clarify, **Curtis**. > > (Not that I’m a fan of Jacob Zuma, who strikes me as a total scumbag.) Exactly. Given the history of this nation, patriotism right now shows you approve of the current regime rather than the previous one, and that’s worth celebrating IMO even if one doesn’t always like the current personalities in charge. I apologise if talking about someone other than America is derailing the thread; I had hoped that you guys might be interested in the sociological implications of patriotism in other countries as well. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/103 "2010-05-23T09:00:38Z")
> [@PsyXe](#): > > I apologise if talking about someone other than America is derailing the thread; I had hoped that you guys might be interested in the sociological implications of patriotism in other countries as well. Ah, the triumph of the uninformed self-righteous! Nobody said anything about refraining about countries other than America. But **Curtis** isn’t the only one with a hobbyhorse. We have a wooden cavalry ready to charge on the merest pretext of Amero-centrism. The derailment is complete. Anyone who wanted to talk about whether patriotism is a meaningless ritual will have to find some other thread. All we’re going to get are screeds about bones in noses and Americans who can’t find any other countries on maps. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/104 "2010-05-23T09:18:17Z")
> [@PsyXe](#): > > Let me guess, cynical and absolutely apolitical? But do you really not even sing the national anthem? ☹ I don’t sing it, both for political reasons as well as religious ones. But I know all the words, and the words to _Die Stem_ too. Nah, I’m definitely not apolitical nor cynical, I’m actually very politically active, and a political idealist. But my politics are anarchist, so celebrating the nation-state doesn’t sit well with me. But I’ve got nothing against others doing it - hell, my wife will have those mirror-socks on her car as soon as she’s back in the country (as soon as we can find some cheaper than R120 - talk about a rip-off!) > [@Enginerd](#): > > I believe **Mr. Dibble** is South African. Given the history of that nation, his position strikes me as anything _but_ apolitical. So’s **PsyXe** , if the World Cup flag comment is anything to go by. And I’m unpatriotic _in spite of my_ country’s history - after all, my side won! I should be as flag-waving as any successful revolutionary. ---
**Author:** ![PsyXe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@PsyXe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PsyXe)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/105 "2010-05-23T18:00:22Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Ah, the triumph of the uninformed self-righteous! > > Nobody said anything about refraining about countries other than America. But **Curtis** isn’t the only one with a hobbyhorse. We have a wooden cavalry ready to charge on the merest pretext of Amero-centrism. > > The derailment is complete. Anyone who wanted to talk about whether patriotism is a meaningless ritual will have to find some other thread. All we’re going to get are screeds about bones in noses and Americans who can’t find any other countries on maps. I’m not really sure what you’re talking about here; I can only assume there’s a history involving this topic that I don’t know about. I promise I wasn’t trying to be snarky about America - after all, this is a Chicago-based message board. I was just trying to offer an alternative perspective on the topic, which was, I believe, whether people stand for the national anthem etc. etc. So: Do you stand for the national anthem? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/106 "2010-05-23T21:05:07Z")
I think it’s in reference to the recent Pit thread about making everything all about America. ---
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/107 "2010-05-23T21:18:47Z")
Being a herd animal, I’ll stand when everyone else stands, sit when everyone else sits, just like in church. But that’s it. No singing, no melodramatic bowing of the head, removal of hat, crossing of heart. Bare minimum. As I am not religious yet want to get by in a church, I am not patriotic and yet want to get by at the baseball game, or whatever. Both God and Country aren’t what they used to be, nor am I. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/108 "2010-05-23T21:46:17Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > And those criteria are . . . ? How detailed do you want me to be? I have problems explaining things at length (I ramble without structure) but I’m prepared to do it, if you’re prepared to ask the questions ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/109 "2010-05-23T21:52:08Z")
More detailed is better, I suppose. I’m prepared to ask follow up questions, but I’m afraid you’ve got to start the ball rolling, since I have no idea what kind of criteria you referred to. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/110 "2010-05-23T21:52:24Z")
To me it has never been a meaningless ritual. I love my country and feel very blessed to have been born here and to our founding fathers and Vets that fought to keep it free. I get a good feeling during the national anthem. Without Patriotism we would not be the United States of America. I don’t understand the correlation of Patriotism and religion? Isn’t patriotism pride in country? I have it because I feel very grateful to have been born here and appreciative of my freedom. If we stop caring about that we won’t be free for long. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/111 "2010-05-23T22:14:57Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > I don’t understand the correlation of Patriotism and religion? Is this about my comment? It’s because our National Anthem is a (Christian) hymn. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/112 "2010-05-24T01:58:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Is this about my comment? It’s because our National Anthem is a (Christian) hymn. Oh, for Petes sake. So we need to change the wording to the hymn to suit the atheists? I’m all for it because it is about love of country and is just asking for Gods blessing of our country not that we must believe in God. Instead of 'God Bless America" we can call it, “We Love America”. I think it is a beautiful hymn that should be preserved in some form. ---
**Author:** ![dogbutler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dogbutler/32/428_2.png) [@dogbutler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dogbutler)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/113 "2010-05-24T02:36:47Z")
A. The whole nine yards. > [@dhkendall](#): > > I specifically remember going to a hockey game as a teenager (further proof of my Canadian-ness) and asking if we had to stand for the American anthem too since we weren’t Americans. (I didn’t have anything against the US, it was simply an honest, innocent question.) We stand for “O Canada” at the RBC Center. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/114 "2010-05-24T03:11:26Z")
We interrupt this thread for this breaking news story: > [@](#): > > NOT EVERYONE LIVES IN THE U.S.A. > > “Every country has patriots,” says 5th grader, “not just America.” ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/115 "2010-05-24T04:18:57Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > Oh, for Petes sake. So we need to change the wording to the hymn to suit the atheists? I’m all for it because it is about love of country and is just asking for Gods blessing of our country not that we must believe in God. > > Instead of 'God Bless America" we can call it, “We Love America”. I think it is a beautiful hymn that should be preserved in some form. I think Snowboarder Bo covered it, but it’s [the anthem that has no name](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_anthem_of_South_Africa), not [[del]America, Fuck Yeah![/del] The Star-Spangled Banner](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star-Spangled_Banner) ---
**Author:** ![Lanzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/74df32/32.png) [@Lanzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lanzy)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/116 "2010-05-24T04:36:33Z")
I stand up but just to stay out of fights. I did the pledge once, mostly but left out parts and that was when I was inducted into the Army. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/117 "2010-05-24T04:41:39Z")
I never participate in either if I can help it. Nationalism is not a sentiment I’ve ever really been able to feel or understand. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/118 "2010-05-24T05:31:14Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > Oh, for Petes sake. So we need to change the wording to the hymn to suit the atheists? Not that that’s the hymn I was referring to, but yeah, if you want to be consistent with your own governing documents, you do, “ceremonial deism” be damned. > [@](#): > > I’m all for it because it is about love of country and is just asking for Gods blessing of our country not that we must believe in God. It’s clearly not your ox being gored, is it? > [@](#): > > Instead of 'God Bless America" we can call it, “We Love America”. …and what a lovely anthem that would be. Although if I were in charge, Guthrie’s little ditty, in its original form, would be my first pick. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/119 "2010-05-24T17:46:16Z")
> [@Angry Lurker](#): > > How detailed do you want me to be? I have problems explaining things at length (I ramble without structure) but I’m prepared to do it, if you’re prepared to ask the questions How about just a little bit of detail, then? ---
**Author:** ![PsyXe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@PsyXe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PsyXe)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/120 "2010-05-25T15:46:32Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I think it’s in reference to the recent Pit thread about making everything all about America. Thanks! Did you get my PM about the joys of mirror socks? Anyway, IMO, nationalism is an ugly, ugly thing especially if it’s mixed up with race. However, in a multi-racial society a certain type of patriotism that tries to instil the feeling that we’re all in this together, that whatever colour we are we’re all proud citizens of one country, can be a positive force. I think that’s true for South Africa if we just do it right, and it might possibly be true for the US as well (not that I know enough about the US to be making pronouncements). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895.md?page=7)