# Patriotism, a "meaningless ritual"? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 18, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895 "2010-05-18T16:12:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/121 "2010-05-25T17:12:31Z")
American patriotism isn’t like everyone else’s patriotism. It’s a strange dichotomy where you can wear an American flag t-shirt covered in mustard stains and not be thought of as unpatriotic, but might get beaten to death if you were to fuck with a flag as a political statement. Of course, South African patriotism isn’t like anyone else’s patriotism either. There was a documentary on ESPN the other day about the 1995 Rugby World Cup, and Mandela trotting out onto the pitch before the final wearing a Springboks shirt, and so on. [QUOTE=Perciful] Oh, for Petes sake. So we need to change the wording to the hymn to suit the atheists? I’m all for it because it is about love of country and is just asking for Gods blessing of our country not that we must believe in God. [/QUOTE] You don’t think it’s at all odd to expect people who don’t believe in God to ask for his blessing? > [@](#): > > Isn’t patriotism pride in country? I have it because I feel very grateful to have been born here and appreciative of my freedom. Being _grateful_ to have been born here and being proud to have been born here are two different things. The first is a good thing - Americans (and pretty much anyone not born into privation) _should_ understand that they have it much better than most of the world’s population. The latter is a completely nonsensical; being proud of being born American is like being proud of having blue eyes. It’s an accident of birth, not something you have any right to feel pride in. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/122 "2010-05-25T17:19:17Z")
That’s how I feel about it. I feel grateful, yes. Lucky yes. Being born white in America is hitting the lottery. “Pride,” though implies, in my mind, some sort of personal accomplishment. Being American is not an accomplishment, just a fortunate roll of the dice. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/123 "2010-05-25T18:38:33Z")
Just popping in to express my relative lack of surprise that **Angry Lurker** ’s objective, unbiased criteria for which countries are or aren’t worth a damn have failed to materialize. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/124 "2010-05-25T20:34:41Z")
> [@PsyXe](#): > > Thanks! Did you get my PM about the joys of mirror socks? I did. Didn’t reply, though, I never know when I should. > [@](#): > > Anyway, IMO, nationalism is an ugly, ugly thing especially if it’s mixed up with race. However, in a multi-racial society a certain type of patriotism that tries to instil the feeling that we’re all in this together, that whatever colour we are we’re all proud citizens of one country, can be a positive force. I think that’s true for South Africa if we just do it right, and it might possibly be true for the US as well (not that I know enough about the US to be making pronouncements). I’m OK with a sort of self-pride in the \*ubuntu \*mode, or the World Cup fever. I just don’t like celebration of the state as an entity, or its symbols. I cheer the Proteas, Springboks and Bafana on just fine without that. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/125 "2010-05-25T22:15:30Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > Just popping in to express my relative lack of surprise that **Angry Lurker** ’s objective, unbiased criteria for which countries are or aren’t worth a damn have failed to materialize. Now, now, if you read his quotes and replies to my disdain, he mentioned that his rating was unbiased and objective because it was strictly abiding by criteria. He didn’t mention the criteria was unbiased. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/126 "2010-05-26T01:43:17Z")
Rumor has it that the criteria were “floats my boat” and “not something I’m into”. Can’t get much more objective than that. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/127 "2010-05-26T03:36:13Z")
> [@dhkendall](#): > > Do you? Yes. And I sing the words, too. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/128 "2010-05-26T23:23:21Z")
I disapprove of any public ritual that tends to identify some as in-group members and others as outsiders even when no outsiders are present. I believe “pride” in one’s national or ethnic heritage is nothing positive and is a root of all brands of other-isms. I don’t know about people in other countries, but we here in America spend far too much time and spirit being proud of ourselves. Nevertheless, I stand, so as not to stick out. > [@Cugel](#): > > I’m Australian and don’t stand. Have little truck with that sheeplike mentality. > > Never got any grief over it, not even a frowny face AFAIK But what about for a rousing rendition of “Land Down Under”? ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/129 "2010-05-28T13:49:47Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > American patriotism isn’t like everyone else’s patriotism. It’s a strange dichotomy where you can wear an American flag t-shirt covered in mustard stains and not be thought of as unpatriotic, but might get beaten to death if you were to fuck with a flag as a political statement. > > Of course, South African patriotism isn’t like anyone else’s patriotism either. There was a documentary on ESPN the other day about the 1995 Rugby World Cup, and Mandela trotting out onto the pitch before the final wearing a Springboks shirt, and so on. > > You don’t think it’s at all odd to expect people who don’t believe in God to ask for his blessing? > > Being _grateful_ to have been born here and being proud to have been born here are two different things. > > The first is a good thing - Americans (and pretty much anyone not born into privation) _should_ understand that they have it much better than most of the world’s population. > > The latter is a completely nonsensical; being proud of being born American is like being proud of having blue eyes. It’s an accident of birth, not something you have any right to feel pride in. Our country is free because of the people that fought and died to make it so. People have forgot the history that made our country so great and free. It is out of respect we put our hand over our hearts. Yes, We have it so good and yet we cannot appreciate what we have so it will be taken from us by our own stupidity. I say any person that does not put his hand over his heart and salute the flag is a traitor and not an American. He should be shipped off immediately to a third world country and forced to spend the rest of his life in charge of handing the NATO food drops. So Patriotism is bad? Wait for what is coming to replace it. Only then will we appreciate the freedom we had but gave away. We are so dumb sometimes but history is doomed to repeat itself. Why is history doomed to repeat itself? Because we forget what is really important and it takes losing what we had to appreciate it. Has anyone checked out what is going on in Thailand? Probably not because only Siam is covering it. CNN won’t let us see it? We are headed there if we keep our heads in the sand. The war cry of the fat, lazy, apathetic, American, “I want, I want, I want, I want what I want and I WANT IT MY WAY”! To hell with the greater good it’s all about me! No fair, I’m a minority and I deserve “blank” because we live in a free country. Abuse of freedom comes with a price. So you don’t want to be Patriotic? Were going to get a big spanking soon and we deserve it. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/130 "2010-05-28T14:00:42Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > Our country is free because of the people that fought and died to make it so. People have forgot the history that made our country so great and free. It is out of respect we put our hand over our hearts. Yes, We have it so good and yet we cannot appreciate what we have so it will be taken from us by our own stupidity. > > I say any person that does not put his hand over his heart and salute the flag is a traitor and not an American. He should be shipped off immediately to a third world country and forced to spend the rest of his life in charge of handing the NATO food drops. > > So Patriotism is bad? Wait for what is coming to replace it. Only then will we appreciate the freedom we had but gave away. You have a funny definition of freedom. You have a funny definition of a lot of things. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/131 "2010-05-28T14:10:11Z")
It’s called reality… What a concept? ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/132 "2010-05-28T14:18:17Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > I say any person that does not put his hand over his heart and salute the flag is a traitor and not an American. He should be shipped off immediately to a third world country and forced to spend the rest of his life in charge of handing the NATO food drops. Either you’re a very clever troll or very, very stupid. I really can’t decide. Hm. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/133 "2010-05-28T18:19:52Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > I say any person that does not put his hand over his heart and salute the flag is a traitor and not an American. Fortunately, nobody gives a shit what you say. Luckily for you, nobody cares what I say, either, because I say that any person with a P in their username is a traitor and not an American- and must be beaten to death with a flagpole. It’s a fucking _flag._ It’s not sacred. It’s not even a particularly nice design. People who demand pointless displays of loyalty usually themselves spurn actual loyalty. If you spend all day demanding that people respect the flag, you forget about respecting the _country_- and start doing things like calling people traitors for exercising the rights whose guarantee is our founding value. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/134 "2010-05-28T20:58:53Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > Just popping in to express my relative lack of surprise that **Angry Lurker** ’s objective, unbiased criteria for which countries are or aren’t worth a damn have failed to materialize. I don’t keep track of every thread I post in for God’s sake. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/135 "2010-05-28T22:11:08Z")
I don’t understand the objection that you didn’t take any part in the US and so don’t feel proud. I am not proud of myself, I am proud of my country. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/136 "2010-05-28T22:32:14Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > Either you’re a very clever troll or very, very stupid. I really can’t decide. Hm. **Moderator Warning**. You’ve been here since Cecil was a pup. You’re in IMHO. Calling someone a troll or insulting them is only allowed in the Pit. Don’t do this again. **samclem** MOderator, IMHO and GQ. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/137 "2010-05-28T23:10:44Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Fortunately, nobody gives a shit what you say. Luckily for you, nobody cares what I say, either, because I say that any person with a P in their username is a traitor and not an American- and must be beaten to death with a flagpole. > > It’s a fucking _flag._ It’s not sacred. It’s not even a particularly nice design. People who demand pointless displays of loyalty usually themselves spurn actual loyalty. > > If you spend all day demanding that people respect the flag, you forget about respecting the _country_- and start doing things like calling people traitors for exercising the rights whose guarantee is our founding value. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3PudWt\_kHI](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3PudWt_kHI) ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/138 "2010-05-28T23:16:52Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3PudWt\_kHI](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3PudWt_kHI) “So-called President”? Really, Perciful? Just out of curiosity, and because I’m stupid, why is he the “so-called President” instead of, you know, “the President”? ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/139 "2010-05-28T23:36:34Z")
It’s a fun tactic, you call someone a faker without actually accusing them of something. That so-called heterosexual Michael Savage who loves so-called homeopathic “medicine” isn’t saying anything about the President’s legitimacy, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/140 "2010-05-28T23:45:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I don’t understand the objection that you didn’t take any part in the US and so don’t feel proud. I am not proud of myself, I am proud of my country. > > Regards, > Shodan That’s just it - are you proud to be white? Proud to be tall? Proud to speak English? Like your nationality, these are accidents of birth (unless, of course, English is not your first language, which as far as I am aware is not the case). You should take pride in your accomplishments, or those that you had a hand in- ie., your kids’, your spouse’s, your friends’, and so on. I think you’d admit that you have not personally made the United States of America a better/stronger/prettier/healthier/smarter nation… so why should you be proud? Be _happy_ that you’re an American. Don’t be proud. > [@Perciful](#): > > > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > > Fortunately, nobody gives a shit what you say. Luckily for you, nobody cares what I say, either, because I say that any person with a P in their username is a traitor and not an American- and must be beaten to death with a flagpole. > > > > It’s a fucking _flag._ It’s not sacred. It’s not even a particularly nice design. People who demand pointless displays of loyalty usually themselves spurn actual loyalty. > > > > If you spend all day demanding that people respect the flag, you forget about respecting the _country_- and start doing things like calling people traitors for exercising the rights whose guarantee is our founding value. > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3PudWt\_kHI](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3PudWt_kHI) I’ll see your Michael Savage, and I’ll raise you a [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895.md?page=8)