# patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 5, 2008, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161 "2008-09-05T12:24:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Burton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Burton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Burton)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/1 "2008-09-05T12:24:16Z")
That’s my take on the Republican Convention. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/2 "2008-09-05T12:26:08Z")
Believe me, it’s not just a Republican problem! ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/3 "2008-09-05T13:48:29Z")
Just because all A are B, that doesn’t mean all B are A. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/4 "2008-09-05T13:50:21Z")
What’s the debate? I think in certain instances patriotism is a good idea. I don’t know about the American varieties so much though. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/5 "2008-09-05T14:51:45Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > I think in certain instances patriotism is a good idea. I don’t know about the American varieties so much though. The American variety is elitism on a massive scale. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/6 "2008-09-05T15:16:13Z")
The last? It is the first. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Believe me, it’s not just a Republican problem! Indeed, what with Obama talking about resasserting American’s moral authority upon the world stage and assorted verbiage. Scary stuff. > [@An Gadaí](#): > > I think in certain instances patriotism is a good idea. Please list some. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/7 "2008-09-05T15:36:03Z")
Of course, it depends on your definition of patriotism. I think the problem I see with what many Republicans seem to have labeled “patriotism” is that it is really more like “jingoism”, e.g., the mindless chants of “U.S.A., U.S.A.” as if you are rooting for a football team…as opposed to a pride in country that goes along with an ability to see its faults and work to correct them. ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/8 "2008-09-05T15:41:33Z")
And, of course, Samuel Johnson was not denigrating patriotism in general, which he thought a good thing, but misplaced patriotism. Which may actually make the quote even more relevant to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/9 "2008-09-05T15:52:29Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Please list some. Well patriotism is one way of motivating people to act for the common good with regards to the environment, heritage or whatever else. It helps people connect with the values they share with their broader community. I don’t mean flag-waving bullshit, but getting involved with altruistic activities beyond your immediate environment is a form of patriotism. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/10 "2008-09-05T16:05:56Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > The American variety is elitism on a massive scale. I don’t think anyone can speak for the masses on patriotism. It means something different to each person. I have never heard anyone say this country is perfect, that’s why we keep electing different presidents and other politicians. The one thing I like to mention when people are downing respect for the country, is I don’t see any mass migrations leaving and going somewhere else. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/11 "2008-09-05T16:13:58Z")
The author of war lets loose the whole contagion of hell and opens a vein that bleeds a nation to death. James Madison War rallies the people into a frenzy that causes the people to fight against their own interests and to concentrate power in the hands of the few. Sadly, no soldier leaves war unharmed. We have thousands of walking wounded and McCain thinks we need more. Patriotism is a call to people. It does not impact corporations. They are international. They will relocate the second it makes more money for them. War makes great wealth in a short time. Corps like Blackwater should face derision from the masses . Halliburton should be reviled for war profiteering. They of course have moved their headquarters off shore. We are not at war. There is no country called terrorism. Terrorist should be fought with intelligence, infiltration and governmental cooperation. It is not a battle that can be won with great armies and weapons. It is difficult to resist the way cry. But we will be a better country when we do. The masses do not want war. But they question your patriotism when you even question what they are doing. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/12 "2008-09-05T16:17:54Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > I think the problem I see with what many Republicans seem to have labeled “patriotism” is that it is really more like “jingoism”, e.g., the mindless chants of “U.S.A., U.S.A.” as if you are rooting for a football team…as opposed to a pride in country that goes along with an ability to see its faults and work to correct them. I think the problem I see with what many Democrats seem to have labeled “patriotism” is that it involves the (sometimes not) unspoken understanding that America is the most wise, virtuous, and well meaning country on the planet and therefore has not only the right but a moral duty to be what is euphemistically called “the cop of the world.” That is to say, we have the duty to intervene wherever and whenever we see fit and are both understanding and moral enough to mediate other’s conflicts. For the good of the world, of course! Unless a Republican does it. Then it’s wildly immoral and any appeals to patriotism is a barbaric throwback to a simpler time. But if it’s a Democratic war or intervention? Anyone who questions it might have a little American hating in them. Ask the Republicans (and others) who criticized his adventures in the Balkans. It’s amazing how so much goes down the memory hole. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/13 "2008-09-05T16:19:09Z")
> [@Burton](#): > > That’s my take on the Republican Convention. Love of country during a political convention is bad? That’s sad. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/14 "2008-09-05T17:05:09Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Well patriotism is one way of motivating people to act for the common good with regards to the environment, heritage or whatever else. It helps people connect with the values they share with their broader community. I don’t mean flag-waving bullshit, but getting involved with altruistic activities beyond your immediate environment is a form of patriotism. Patriotism is also what prevents a nation from turning into an Iraq or a Somalia or any other tribal battlefield. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/15 "2008-09-05T17:07:00Z")
USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! I trust we will have no further questions on this matter. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/16 "2008-09-05T17:09:26Z")
Peace can not be achieved by force. It can only be reached through international understanding. War just increases the poll of hatred. How can it be unpatriotic to refuse to allow the war mongers to destroy our country as they get richer and more powerful.? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/17 "2008-09-05T17:55:19Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Peace can not be achieved by force. It can only be reached through international understanding. An admirable sentiment, but not one supported by history. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/18 "2008-09-05T18:01:29Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Peace can not be achieved by force. It can only be reached through international understanding. War just increases the poll of hatred. How can it be unpatriotic to refuse to allow the war mongers to destroy our country as they get richer and more powerful.? I’m sure the republic of Rome will be interested in your theory; perhaps they can get in on Power Point slides for a presentation to the city council of Carthage. Also Germany, France, England, Russia, Japan, Italy, and the United States, c. 1945, would be fascinated to hear how peace can’t be achieved by force. Please, tell us more. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/19 "2008-09-05T18:13:12Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > But if it’s a Democratic war or intervention? Anyone who questions it might have a little American hating in them. Ask the Republicans (and others) who criticized his adventures in the Balkans. It’s amazing how so much goes down the memory hole. Are you really equating a _NATO_ organized war with UN sanction (IIRC) to a unilateral invasion of Iraq? An invasion of Grenada under Reagan? An invasion of Panama under Bush? I’m missing the part with the war mongering (err…world policing) Democrats here. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/20 "2008-09-05T18:43:50Z")
Questioning the patriotism of someone who wants out of Iraq is like questing the parenting of someone who wants their child to go to rehab. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161.md?page=2)