# patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 5, 2008, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161 "2008-09-05T12:24:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/21 "2008-09-05T18:49:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m sure the republic of Rome will be interested in your theory; perhaps they can get in on Power Point slides for a presentation to the city council of Carthage. > > Also Germany, France, England, Russia, Japan, Italy, and the United States, c. 1945, would be fascinated to hear how peace can’t be achieved by force. > > Please, tell us more. What peace is that. we have been at war continuously. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/22 "2008-09-05T18:50:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m sure the republic of Rome will be interested in your theory; perhaps they can get in on Power Point slides for a presentation to the city council of Carthage. > > Also Germany, France, England, Russia, Japan, Italy, and the United States, c. 1945, would be fascinated to hear how peace can’t be achieved by force. > > Please, tell us more. It took several rounds of war with Carthage for peace to be forged. Likewise Germany. War’s record as a peacemaker is uneven at best. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/23 "2008-09-05T18:59:57Z")
War vof 1812 Mexican- American War Civil War Spanish American War WW1 WW2 Korea Vietnam Desert Storm Iraq Afghanistan Just a string of them. This does not include our little invasions and disruptions of sovereign states. That is what we are and what we do. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/24 "2008-09-05T20:46:31Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > That is what we are and what we do. Are you referring to the human race? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/25 "2008-09-05T20:49:28Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > It took several rounds of war with Carthage for peace to be forged. Likewise Germany. War’s record as a peacemaker is uneven at best. Absolutely. But then, you could say the same thing about negotiations and compromise. The fact of the matter is, there is no absolute solution to war; with some of them, you have to reach an understanding; with others, the only solution is to force a resolution by use of violence. The trick is knowing which is which. One thing I hate, though, is the “it’s all a big misunderstanding” school of geopolitics. Face it, most enemies understand each other pretty damn well, and even if they did manage to sit down together, they’d only figure out ways to keep on fightings. That’s because most war are fought for REASONS - real, concrete reasons, like land, or resources, or money. These are not things that go away if you talk about them, and these are not things that can be settled peacefully, because for one, people are evil and greedy, and for another, one a certain level, the world IS zero-sum. Everybody can’t be happy. Sucks, but that’s the way it is. Sorry. Got a little carried away there. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/26 "2008-09-05T20:55:33Z")
**PATRIOTISM, n.** Combustible rubbish ready to the torch of any one ambitious to illuminate his name. In Dr. Johnson’s famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I beg to submit that it is the first. – Ambrose Bierce ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/27 "2008-09-05T21:17:40Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Well patriotism is one way of motivating people to act for the common good with regards to the environment, heritage or whatever else. It helps people connect with the values they share with their broader community. I don’t mean flag-waving bullshit, but getting involved with altruistic activities beyond your immediate environment is a form of patriotism. You can’t possibly be implying that a community organizer might be a _ **patriot** _, can you? ---
**Author:** ![TV\_time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TV\_time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TV_time)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/28 "2008-09-06T15:31:39Z")
It has always worried me when someone suggest that you have to hate someone else to love your own country and that seems to be a good portion of how some people define patriotism these days. A group of people the past few years have demonized individuals who see flaws in the ways of an administration or a leader and thus equated that observation with being a non-patriot. It is sad. If a person sees something wrong and wants to help change it, he is a good person in my mind. But that has not been the concept the last handful of years. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/29 "2008-09-06T15:39:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m sure the republic of Rome will be interested in your theory; perhaps they can get in on Power Point slides for a presentation to the city council of Carthage. > > Also Germany, France, England, Russia, Japan, Italy, and the United States, c. 1945, would be fascinated to hear how peace can’t be achieved by force. > > Please, tell us more. Please to point out examples of where war has brought about any lasting peace, and while you’re at it would you mind giving us your definition of “peace”? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/30 "2008-09-06T18:37:20Z")
Well… we ain’t fought those nasty japanese folks in 50 years. Nor those Germans. Or them Southerners. Or them Brits, since New Orleans. Or them Indians hardly at all. Cause they’re mostly dead. ---
**Author:** ![vison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e47774/32.png) [@vison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vison)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/31 "2008-09-06T19:29:58Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Patriotism is also what prevents a nation from turning into an Iraq or a Somalia or any other tribal battlefield. ??? Is it allowed to ask: WTF? ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/32 "2008-09-06T19:30:26Z")
Patriotism is the belief that one country is superior to all others because you were born in it - Oscar Wilde (paraphrased from memory) ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/33 "2008-09-06T20:56:57Z")
> [@vison](#): > > ??? > > Is it allowed to ask: WTF? I can’t speak for **Alessan** , but I understood his remark to posit _tribal_ interests in opposition to _national_ or, if you will, _supra-tribal_ interests. I think he was asserting that nationalism, and its partner patriotism, are largely superior to tribalism. If so, I agree. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161/34 "2008-09-06T21:40:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Also Germany, France, England, Russia, Japan, Italy, and the United States, c. 1945, would be fascinated to hear how peace can’t be achieved by force. > > Please, tell us more. Yea using force on Iraq only cost trillions of dollars in debt. Pocket change. Great idea. I mean Saddam clearly was as dangerous as Hitler and Imperial Japan combined. Look at all the WMDs they found! Oh wait… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-is-the-last-refuge-of-the-scoundrel/462161.md?page=1)