# Patriotism... What Is It Good For? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 28, 2007, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-what-is-it-good-for/405742 "2007-05-28T00:32:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-what-is-it-good-for/405742/62 "2007-05-30T18:12:13Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t see how my love for my my country forces me to hate anyone else. The fact that I love my wife doesn’t make me despise other women. They say Helen had a face that launched a thousand ships. If true, it’s the last time anybody ever fought a war over a pretty face. Since then, most soldiers are told they’re dying _for their country._ I don’t know why _loving your country_ means you have to go kill people in other countries… but it seems to be the case. > [@](#): > > The fact of the matter is, that despite it all, my country - its government and its people - look after me. They care whether I live or die, which is more than I can say about the rest of the world. I’ve never been to Israel. I’d desperately love to go, although nobody will come with me (everybody seems to think tourists are instantly killed at the airport). One of these days I’ll just have to buy a ticket and go alone. I imagine Israel is among the most patriotic places in the world. But I bet it’s not as dangerous as people think. > [@](#): > > t’s a feeling of being part of something larger than oneself, and owing allegience to that something. And I am absolutely convinced that such feelings can motivate people to do very good and very bad things. I say that patriotism when combined with other qualities like intelligence, wisdom, and a sound moral/ethical sense, is indeed a good thing. In the parable of the Good Samaritan, Jesus talks about a man who was waylaid and attacked and beaten and left in the road. His countrymen pass him by, but a man of a different country - a Samaritan - stops and nurses him. “Who is his neighbor?” Jesus asks. I’ve always taken the story to mean that people are people first, not Jews, or Samaritans. > [@](#): > > They are potentially as dangerous as the crazy bomb-chucking terrorists from the East - indeed, the two groups share a wide range of similarities. Both groups believe the lives of the ‘enemy’ have no value, and both groups hate liberals, and liberalism. > [@](#): > > i suppose one of the best things the UN could accomplish would be to get everybody to agree that only men 50 years and older would be drafted for military service. 🙂 I suppose if we assessed a death tax on the rich, for each and every dead 19 year old boy, the wars would end a lot quicker, too. > [@](#): > > In the case of the greatest country to ever grace the globe What makes your country the greatest ever to grace the globe? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-what-is-it-good-for/405742/63 "2007-05-30T18:43:04Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier] The historical precedent is pretty plain. No nationalism, no government. You’re part of the church, or bound to whoever happens to own the land you work and is strong enough to keep it. But, if you get enough people together who all agree that they’re part of the same culture, share similar values, and are willing to invest in a central authority…you have a government. [/quote] But you can have all those things without patriotism. Shared culture doesn’t need it. Shared values, same thing. Willingness to invest in a central authority, same thing; I don’t invest in my country because I feel loyal to it, I invest in it and follow it’s rules because it’s best for me and other people. You’ve suggested that there is something lacking in my non-patriotic beliefs, but you haven’t really specified it. Imagine a culture consisting of only copies of me. Once you’ve managed to recover from such a horrifying vision (and it could take even me a couple of hours. Erk.), could you tell me what would stop the Revenant culture from forming a government? > [@](#): > > Not only do I think it’s natural to have pride for (and loyalty to) the people and culture you come from, I think it’s pretty unnatural **not** to. Me too, actually. Most people seem to be patriotic. I would imagine it’s an inbuilt mechanism; if you feel strong emotional bonds with your tribe, you’ll get by together better and survive longer. But then, “most people” is not how we should judge things; and what is _natural_ is, happily, often no longer thought of as\* right\*. We no longer need emotion alone to survive; we can choose to. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-what-is-it-good-for/405742/64 "2007-05-30T18:44:38Z")
> [@](#): > > You seem to be afraid of most everything. Have you ever been harmed by a patriot? Why do you think people who criticize patriotism are fearful? Because, in my experience, it’s just the opposite. It’s the patriots who are most fearful, and also the most anxious to make others afraid. Whether it’s terrorism, or communism, or whatever, there’s always something they say we should be afraid of. Some reason why we have to spend more money on weapons, some reason why young men have to go die in a jungle, or a desert. And what it always boils down to is one thing: fear. “They’re coming to get us.” It’s the patriot’s refrain. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-what-is-it-good-for/405742/65 "2007-05-30T19:01:06Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] But you can have all those things without patriotism. Shared culture doesn’t need it. Shared values, same thing. Willingness to invest in a central authority, same thing; I don’t invest in my country because I feel loyal to it, I invest in it and follow it’s rules because it’s best for me and other people. [/QUOTE] I think your definition of patriotism is a little odd. A country is as much a cultural divide as a political one, and patriotism is a sense of pride for your country. Wouldn’t that be the same as being proud of your culture? Is it wrong to be proud of your culture? By the way, I’m not suggesting that there’s something lacking in your non patriotic beliefs. This thread is pretty full of attacks in the other direction, actually. I’m just trying to defend myself and justify my own feelings to you, and point out that it’s not really that abominable to love your country and its history, even though there’s plenty of violent, ugly parts. ---
**Author:** ![Eggerhaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@Eggerhaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eggerhaus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-what-is-it-good-for/405742/66 "2007-05-30T20:53:22Z")
I like how Bierce defined it in The Devil’s Dictionary: “In Dr. Johnson’s famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I beg to submit that it is the first.” ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-what-is-it-good-for/405742/67 "2007-05-30T21:03:33Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier] I think your definition of patriotism is a little odd. A country is as much a cultural divide as a political one, and patriotism is a sense of pride for your country. Wouldn’t that be the same as being proud of your culture? Is it wrong to be proud of your culture? [/quote] I haven’t said anything about being proud of one’s culture. I’ve simply mentioned having a shared culture. Is it wrong to be proud of your culture? Indiscriminately, certainly. If I were to say “My culture is the best culture ever!”, were I to hold it up as a paragon of excellence, i’d be also accidentally exalting all those bad things about my culture that also exist. By saying “My culture is great!” i’m equally saying that the sense of equality and the casual racism involved in it are great. That’s my point about patriotism; Don’t be proud of generalised symbols or concepts. Be proud of the actual things you can be proud about. Don’t say “My culture rules!” say “The idea of equality rules!”. Being proud of your culture can be wrong. But by specifying, we reduce that risk. It’s all the good with less of the bad! > [@](#): > > By the way, I’m not suggesting that there’s something lacking in your non patriotic beliefs. This thread is pretty full of attacks in the other direction, actually. I’m just trying to defend myself and justify my own feelings to you, and point out that it’s not really that abominable to love your country and its history, even though there’s plenty of violent, ugly parts. Well, you have in fact called my beliefs unnatural; you may think that “unnatural” is not necessarily a bad thing, but that is not the general view of the term. You’ve suggested that a culture comprised of people who think like me would not be able to form a cohesive government. And while this thread may be full of attacks in the other direction, I have not participated in them. All i’m trying to say to you is that you can feel exactly as you feel, but you can take out all those violent, ugly parts. And i’m suggesting that’s a better view. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-what-is-it-good-for/405742.md?page=3)