# Patriots owner Robert Kraft charged in Florida prostitution sting **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 22, 2019, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriots-owner-robert-kraft-charged-in-florida-prostitution-sting/830034 "2019-02-22T18:26:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriots-owner-robert-kraft-charged-in-florida-prostitution-sting/830034/81 "2019-02-27T20:20:05Z")
> [@polar\_bear](#): > > A few things to note about the definition of human traficking. As soon as sex is involved, the perspective of the person being traficked doesn’t matter anymore. You could have the happiest outgoing person that wants to be there… who will still be considered a victim. So there are levels of victimhood in human trafficking? If they manage to look sorta happy, it isn’t really so bad? This may be the most fucked up repugnant thing I’ve read here in quite some time. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriots-owner-robert-kraft-charged-in-florida-prostitution-sting/830034/82 "2019-02-27T20:25:24Z")
Given that a significant portion of prostitutes and other sex workers work against their will - from girls pimped by their boyfriends to full-blown bring-em-here-in-a-container sex-trafficking, the point that Kraft maybe didn’t know the plight of these girls has exactly no bearing. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriots-owner-robert-kraft-charged-in-florida-prostitution-sting/830034/83 "2019-02-27T20:30:44Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Ironically, you’d think that the sports networks would be the ones focusing on Kraft, since this is only a “sports story” at all because he was involved. Sports reporters are humans too. They _can’t_ focus on Kraft without being asked why they’re doing that instead of commenting on slavery and trafficking. The Kraft part is titillating but virtually meaningless by comparison - even discussing possible NFL sanctions is pretty shallow. ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriots-owner-robert-kraft-charged-in-florida-prostitution-sting/830034/84 "2019-02-27T22:32:22Z")
N/M ---
**Author:** ![polar\_bear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ec9cab/32.png) [@polar\_bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/polar_bear)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2019, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriots-owner-robert-kraft-charged-in-florida-prostitution-sting/830034/85 "2019-02-28T00:02:35Z")
> [@Isosleepy](#): > > So there are levels of victimhood in human trafficking? If they manage to look sorta happy, it isn’t really so bad? This may be the most fucked up repugnant thing I’ve read here in quite some time. No, I’m not saying that. I’m not saying that at all. I’m saying that someone who chooses to become a (legal) sexworker and is 100% content with that choice and everything it implies (money, johns, hours, club or not, etc), _can_ still be considered a victim of trafficking if another person plays a role in the business (driving, security, making adverts, etc). Per the definition that is. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2019, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriots-owner-robert-kraft-charged-in-florida-prostitution-sting/830034/86 "2019-02-28T00:15:51Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > [They are.](https://www.wptv.com/news/local-news/martin-county/martin-county-sheriff-william-snyder-holds-news-conference-on-8-month-investigation) The target was the traffickers, the johns were just a little extra. A way to put out there that “Hey, if you go to one of these kind of place you may be supporting trafficking and you will get publicly shamed.” > [@BigT](#): > > This thread is about a john of human trafficking. And **SlackerInc** is objecting to that person being arrested. But then his reasoning is all based on voluntary prostitution. He keeps mixing the two. > > I wouldn’t expect anyone to actually think he supports sex slavery. It’s just more making a point that you need to keep the two concepts separate. You know who often has a problem keeping the two concepts separate? The actual law enforcement agencies who engage in these types of stings. In a significant number of cases like this, they make a lot of noise about trafficking, but end up doing little more than breaking up consensual prostitution rings. For too many cops, “prostitution” and “trafficking” go together like bacon and eggs; where you find the first, you’ll always find the second. The emphasis on alleged trafficking helps to drum up support among the hoi polloi because, understandably, no-one wants to express any support for people who engage in actual human trafficking. The term “trafficking” serves a rhetorical function that attracts the law-and-order crowd and attempts to head off criticisms from the legalization crowd, the same way that terms like “gateway drug” and “addiction” are often used by law enforcement to justify marijuana stings and head off criticism of the war on drugs. As Elizabeth Nolan Brown [reported](https://reason.com/blog/2019/02/25/florida-massage-parlor-sex-stings) a couple of days ago, Florida law enforcement has been walking back a lot of its earlier trafficking rhetoric, and there’s precious little actual evidence that much, or any, coerced prostitution was going on here. Yes, I understand that Reason is a largely libertarian site, and that libertarians get pretty short shrift among many Dopers (including me), but I’ve found Nolan Brown’s reporting on the sex trade to be pretty reasonable in the past. > [@](#): > > Martin County Sheriff Snyder told CNN today that police were having trouble getting one woman in custody to “cooperate” in explaining why they would “go and allow themselves to be trafficked.” > > “They had the ability, they could’ve walked out into the street and asked for help,” he continued, noting that they often worked long hours and cooked food on a hot-plate instead of leaving for meals. “But they didn’t.” > > Instead of taking this as a sign that these women were willingly engaging in this work, police continue to seek ways to explain away this evidence. (And the CNN host asked why they wouldn’t “speak their truth.”) Snyder claims that one woman said she was afraid people might hurt her family if she cooperated. > > \ > > Early reports from local news said that all of this was “tied to an international human-trafficking and prostitution ring,” but police have offered no evidence of that so far. The whole case is reminiscent of a 2016 sting in Seattle, announced with similarly dire fanfare but yielding nothing but prostitution findings (and a lot of misery for those targeted by police). Trafficking is BAD, and when it happens it should be stamped out with all possible force. But it also shouldn’t be deployed by law enforcement in a dishonest attempt to misrepresent what are often little more than efforts to stamp out consensual sex work. We can argue all day about whether consensual prostitution should or should not be legal, but it shouldn’t be conflated with trafficking just to act as a shield for draconian law enforcement crackdowns. As a whole raft of sex workers’ advocates have noted, the people who end up suffering the most in many of these sorts of stings are often the sex workers themselves. And as Nolan Brown concludes in her article: > [@](#): > > Perhaps the truth lies somewhere between dens of captive sex slaves and totally empowered and free workers, but we’ll never get there by treating this as a movie-style rescue fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2019, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriots-owner-robert-kraft-charged-in-florida-prostitution-sting/830034/87 "2019-02-28T00:31:44Z")
I don’t think a lot of so-called consensual sex work is in fact consensual at all- just because someone isn’t chained or locked up doesn’t mean they are not coerced. For the small portion of sex work which is in fact consensual, I have no problem people promoting legalizing it. From the descriptions here, there is little doubt that this was pretty clearly coercive, and classic trafficking. But trafficking cases are as I understand it very hard to make, so often those charges are not brought. We are not dealing with consensual sex work here. I don’t understand why arguments are brought against persecution or prosecution of consensual transactional sex, when so clearly this is not the case here. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2019, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriots-owner-robert-kraft-charged-in-florida-prostitution-sting/830034/88 "2019-02-28T00:39:16Z")
> [@polar\_bear](#): > > No, I’m not saying that. I’m not saying that at all. > > I’m saying that someone who chooses to become a (legal) sexworker and is 100% content with that choice and everything it implies (money, johns, hours, club or not, etc), _can_ still be considered a victim of trafficking if another person plays a role in the business (driving, security, making adverts, etc). > > Per the definition that is. Please show me that definition. I’m pretty sure Ms Daniels, Stormy, is not considered trafficked because she engages a driver. Regardless, I am supremely unconcerned with the possibility of non-trafficked sex workers being classified as trafficked, when the reverse is so much more often true. It is time that those who frequent Day-spas, or certain clubs in Germany etc realize that they are more than likely encountering victims of coercion or trafficking amongst those from whom they receive services. It may not be obvious, they may have been conditioned to seem ok with their lot, but that is no excuse to be ignorant of the possibility. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2019, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriots-owner-robert-kraft-charged-in-florida-prostitution-sting/830034/89 "2019-02-28T00:55:46Z")
> [@Isosleepy](#): > > I don’t think a lot of so-called consensual sex work is in fact consensual at all- just because someone isn’t chained or locked up doesn’t mean they are not coerced. For the small portion of sex work which is in fact consensual, I have no problem people promoting legalizing it. From the descriptions here, there is little doubt that this was pretty clearly coercive, and classic trafficking. But trafficking cases are as I understand it very hard to make, so often those charges are not brought. We are not dealing with consensual sex work here. I don’t understand why arguments are brought against persecution or prosecution of consensual transactional sex, when so clearly this is not the case here. What evidence do you have, aside from your own hidebound certainty? Especially regarding your massive generalization that a “small portion of sex work …is in fact consensual”? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2019, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriots-owner-robert-kraft-charged-in-florida-prostitution-sting/830034/90 "2019-02-28T01:08:09Z")
I, for one, did not know that the workers at this sort of establishment are disproportionately victims of trafficking. But then, I have no inclination to visit such an establishment in the first place. Among those who would be so inclined, would they be expected to know this? If this story serves to make said information common knowledge, that would be a good thing. As to the conensuality of sex work in general, there are degrees of consensuality. No doubt, the majority of sex workers made the decision to join the industry under some degree of duress, probably most typically that they need the money and have no better way to earn it. But then, there are plenty of people with office jobs who wouldn’t do those jobs if they didn’t need the money, too, and yet nobody considers office workers to be “coerced”, or “enslaved”, or “trafficked”. Just exactly what level of duress is acceptable? And is the line different for sex work than for any other kind of work? ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2019, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriots-owner-robert-kraft-charged-in-florida-prostitution-sting/830034/91 "2019-02-28T02:33:44Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I, for one, did not know that the workers at this sort of establishment are disproportionately victims of trafficking. But then, I have no inclination to visit such an establishment in the first place. Among those who would be so inclined, would they be expected to know this? I’m pretty sure where the law is concerned it doesn’t matter. If you agree to participate in a bank robbery as a driver, you know that robbing a bank is dangerous and could easily lead to violence. So even though you’re only expecting to facilitate theft, if one of your fellow robbers shoots and kills someone you will likely be charged with murder, because as far as the law is concerned the crime you chose to commit could plausibly have that outcome. Similarly, if you solicit a prostitute it’s common knowledge that it’s plausible that human trafficking may be involved. Therefore it shouldn’t matter if you knew for certain the prostitute was the victim of trafficking. Essentially if you don’t want to risk being charged with participating in trafficking, don’t go to a dodgy illegal brothel. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2019, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriots-owner-robert-kraft-charged-in-florida-prostitution-sting/830034/92 "2019-02-28T17:54:16Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > I’m pretty sure where the law is concerned it doesn’t matter. If you agree to participate in a bank robbery as a driver, you know that robbing a bank is dangerous and could easily lead to violence. So even though you’re only expecting to facilitate theft, if one of your fellow robbers shoots and kills someone you will likely be charged with murder, because as far as the law is concerned the crime you chose to commit could plausibly have that outcome. > > Similarly, if you solicit a prostitute it’s common knowledge that it’s plausible that human trafficking may be involved. Therefore it shouldn’t matter if you knew for certain the prostitute was the victim of trafficking. Essentially if you don’t want to risk being charged with participating in trafficking, don’t go to a dodgy illegal brothel. Do you have any evidence that this is how the laws are written for prostitution and human trafficking? I can find you laws from a number of states that address the type of felony murder situation that you’re talking about in your first paragraph, but those laws actually have to be written in such a way that makes clear how they work. Do you know whether or not anti-prostitution and anti-trafficking laws are written in such a way that simply soliciting a prostitute is, in and of itself, sufficient to sustain a charge of human trafficking? Or are you just making assumptions and drawing parallels for the sake of your personal preferences? If the law works as you suggest, why hasn’t Robert Kraft been charged with human trafficking? And back to the Florida stings, Elizabeth Nolan Brown has [another article](https://reason.com/blog/2019/02/28/homeland-security-spied-on-chinese-women) today that goes into even more detail about the disconnect between the public statements by police and the media, on the one hand, and the actual charges and evidence, on the other. Nolan Brown has been following the police statements, but she’s also been looking at the actual evidence and the actual charges, and there just isn’t much evidence of human trafficking, if any at all. > [@](#): > > Police from Vero Beach said in a press release that one woman had been arrested for human trafficking, and Florida news outlets are still running with that story. But a simple check of county court records shows that this is not the case. Like her colleagues, the woman is charged with engaging in prostitution herself, “deriving support” from prostitution, and “racketeering,” which sounds serious but just means working with others to accomplish something illegal. > > \ > > There is no evidence in initial complaints, the arrest affidavits, the arrest warrants, or subsequent court documents that any of those arrested were using force or deception at the massage businesses. On the warrants, the victim is listed as the State of Florida. > > \ > > If abusive antics were an issue at these places, weeks of hidden camera footage should at least have hinted at it. Instead, nothing on the extensive surveillance footage yielded charges for sex trafficking or other abusive behavior. What it did catch was a bunch of regular massages being given and sometimes additional sexual activity—mostly hand jobs. > > \ > > Police originally relied on two details to spin the trafficking narrative in the press: Some of the women were living at the massage parlors, and they “weren’t allowed to leave.” But Martin County Sheriff William Snyder later admitted that the part about not being allowed to leave was false. There’s more relevant stuff, but I don’t want to run afoul of copyright rules, so I can only suggest that people read it for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2019, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriots-owner-robert-kraft-charged-in-florida-prostitution-sting/830034/93 "2019-02-28T18:11:57Z")
That does reflect on something I have mentioned in previous threads, that very often we hear talk of “human trafficking” to ratchet up the impact, when the facts would reflect violation of existing pimping laws, which should be enough to act and put a stop to the abusive practices. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriots-owner-robert-kraft-charged-in-florida-prostitution-sting/830034/94 "2019-03-01T01:04:07Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Do you have any evidence that this is how the laws are written for prostitution and human trafficking? I can find you laws from a number of states that address the type of felony murder situation that you’re talking about in your first paragraph, but those laws actually have to be written in such a way that makes clear how they work. > > Do you know whether or not anti-prostitution and anti-trafficking laws are written in such a way that simply soliciting a prostitute is, in and of itself, sufficient to sustain a charge of human trafficking? Or are you just making assumptions and drawing parallels for the sake of your personal preferences? If the law works as you suggest, why hasn’t Robert Kraft been charged with human trafficking? I have no idea which is why I was speaking in generalities. If I had specifics I’d cite them. I didn’t claim to be an authority, I was drawing a parallel as a potential explanation _if_ a trafficking charge was levied. And I was also addressing why it might not matter if he didn’t know for certain if trafficking was involved. I think you read much more in my speculation than I claimed. “I’m pretty sure” and “it shouldn’t matter” are not declarations of fact. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriots-owner-robert-kraft-charged-in-florida-prostitution-sting/830034/95 "2019-03-01T01:25:19Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > I have no idea which is why I was speaking in generalities. If I had specifics I’d cite them. I didn’t claim to be an authority, I was drawing a parallel as a potential explanation _if_ a trafficking charge was levied. And I was also addressing why it might not matter if he didn’t know for certain if trafficking was involved. I think you read much more in my speculation than I claimed. “I’m pretty sure” and “it shouldn’t matter” are not declarations of fact. 😉 Yeah, sorry, but that’s not how discussions of the law work. “They do this other thing in some completely different situations, so I think that they probably must do something similar in the situation we’re currently talking about.” Great analysis! Look, I understand that not everyone’s a lawyer. I’m not a lawyer. I also understand that, even when people make the effort to research a legal issue, they might make errors of analysis or interpretation, and we should cut people some slack if they’re making a genuine effort in an area that is not their profession. But when we’re addressing the question of what the law actually says and how the law actually works, then rank speculation and broad generalities and unwarranted inferences from dissimilar situations just don’t cut it. You said, “I’m pretty sure where the law is concerned it doesn’t matter.” But it might matter very much, and just because a felony murder statute exists doesn’t mean that prostitution and trafficking are treated in the same way. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriots-owner-robert-kraft-charged-in-florida-prostitution-sting/830034/96 "2019-03-01T02:27:51Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Yeah, sorry, but that’s not how discussions of the law work. > > “They do this other thing in some completely different situations, so I think that they probably must do something similar in the situation we’re currently talking about.” Great analysis! > > Look, I understand that not everyone’s a lawyer. I’m not a lawyer. I also understand that, even when people make the effort to research a legal issue, they might make errors of analysis or interpretation, and we should cut people some slack if they’re making a genuine effort in an area that is not their profession. But when we’re addressing the question of what the law actually says and how the law actually works, then rank speculation and broad generalities and unwarranted inferences from dissimilar situations just don’t cut it. > > You said, “I’m pretty sure where the law is concerned it doesn’t matter.” But it might matter very much, and just because a felony murder statute exists doesn’t mean that prostitution and trafficking are treated in the same way. This ain’t GQ. I think you got a bit lost. And I think you’ve derailed this thread enough already. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriots-owner-robert-kraft-charged-in-florida-prostitution-sting/830034/97 "2019-03-01T03:16:47Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > This ain’t GQ. I think you got a bit lost. And I think you’ve derailed this thread enough already. Fair enough. “It’s not GQ, so the facts don’t matter.” Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriots-owner-robert-kraft-charged-in-florida-prostitution-sting/830034/98 "2019-03-01T03:45:05Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Fair enough. > > “It’s not GQ, so the facts don’t matter.” > > Got it. No. It’s not GQ so speculation is allowed. Facts as always are welcome. (I’m still waiting on them by the way.) Piling on someone for speculating about legal matters in The Game Room is just trying to rile things up for kicks. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriots-owner-robert-kraft-charged-in-florida-prostitution-sting/830034/99 "2019-03-01T04:21:14Z")
Did the police secretly plant cameras in the place, or do they have some sort of security camera footage? ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriots-owner-robert-kraft-charged-in-florida-prostitution-sting/830034/100 "2019-03-01T04:36:08Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Did the police secretly plant cameras in the place, or do they have some sort of security camera footage? The police planted cameras [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriots-owner-robert-kraft-charged-in-florida-prostitution-sting/830034.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriots-owner-robert-kraft-charged-in-florida-prostitution-sting/830034.md?page=6)