# Paul Clarke: Gun Possessor **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 14, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-clarke-gun-possessor/517567 "2009-11-14T17:52:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-clarke-gun-possessor/517567/1 "2009-11-14T17:52:51Z")
Overview - A British ex-soldier finds a sawed off shotgun dumped in his garden. Knowing it to be an illegal item, he carries the shotgun in a plastic bag to the police to turn it in. He is promptly thrown in jail and convicted of the illegal possession of firearms, with two years jail time. [http://www.thisissurreytoday.co.uk/news/Ex-soldier-faces-jail-handing-gun/article-1509082-detail/article.html](http://www.thisissurreytoday.co.uk/news/Ex-soldier-faces-jail-handing-gun/article-1509082-detail/article.html) One British policeman, commenting privately on the matter: > **[The Something Awful Forums](https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3228476&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=4)** His explanation, summed up, is basically that boomsticks are alien devices that could explode and fire off rounds at any time by being carried about town in a plastic bag, and that this is why the guy is being charged. While I can somewhat see the argument, personally I would have to argue that a [reasonable person](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_person), English or no, isn’t going to be magically imbued with the knowledge that taking illegal items to the police to turn them in is itself a crime. He is more likely going to view it as his civic duty. An ex-soldier, in particular, is going to be aware that the boomstick won’t explode and so he can’t be expected to be so fearful of it as to not touch it. Simply based on the reasonable person standard of law, this conviction doesn’t seem to follow any sense beyond blind adherence to the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Cort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/77aa72/32.png) [@Cort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cort)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-clarke-gun-possessor/517567/2 "2009-11-14T18:18:19Z")
I hate my fucking country sometimes. This story needs to get massive. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-clarke-gun-possessor/517567/3 "2009-11-14T18:25:13Z")
Any illegal item dumped on my property will not be touched at the risk of being charged with possession. Call the police and let them pick up the item. (This learned from watching _COPS_.)😃 That said, pretty damned stupid that he was charged although technically, he \*did \*have possession of the shotgun when he brought it in. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-clarke-gun-possessor/517567/4 "2009-11-14T18:26:22Z")
A guy doing what is the right thing to do in any other civilized country, gets thrown in the can for turning in an illegal weapon. Britain’s moronic gun laws aside, this is now way to treat a citizen and certainly no way to teat a soldier. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-clarke-gun-possessor/517567/5 "2009-11-14T18:30:27Z")
Hey, GB got exactly what the majority voted for. Their land, their government, their laws. I say “Bully” for them. They should throw more of their citizens in prison. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-clarke-gun-possessor/517567/6 "2009-11-14T18:33:40Z")
> [@Cort](#): > > I hate my fucking country sometimes. This story needs to get massive. Most of the craziest nanny-state gone amok stories I have been hearing have been coming out of England these days. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-clarke-gun-possessor/517567/7 "2009-11-14T18:34:01Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > He is promptly thrown in jail and convicted of the illegal possession of firearms, with two years jail time. Wrong. He has not yet been sentenced. That will be on [December 11](http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=81691). > [@](#): > > His explanation, summed up, is basically that boomsticks are alien devices that could explode and fire off rounds at any time by being carried about town in a plastic bag, and that this is why the guy is being charged. Huh? I think you’re muddling up the different “weapons” here. One was a broomstick with which he allegedly beat a government employee; the other was a sawn-off shotgun (unless I’m missing some clever sarcasm). > [@](#): > > While I can somewhat see the argument, personally I would have to argue that a [reasonable person](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_person), English or no, isn’t going to be magically imbued with the knowledge that taking illegal items to the police to turn them in is itself a crime. [Ignorantia iuris neminem excusat](http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/columnists/article1893141.ece). > [@](#): > > He is more likely going to view it as his civic duty. An ex-soldier, in particular, is going to be aware that the boomstick won’t explode and so he can’t be expected to be so fearful of it as to not touch it. > [@](#): > > Simply based on the reasonable person standard of law, this conviction doesn’t seem to follow any sense beyond blind adherence to the rules. IANAL, but the crime of possession of an illegal firearm does not take into account intent: he committed the crime - for whatever reason - and is therefore guilty. I agree, though, that morally this _looks_ very embarrassing, and it’s shit for the guy in question. And will to an extent be a show trial. However, the judge has a great deal of leeway over sentencing, and will hopefully give him a suspended sentence etc. to reflect his good intent. ---
**Author:** ![Cort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/77aa72/32.png) [@Cort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cort)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-clarke-gun-possessor/517567/8 "2009-11-14T18:34:39Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Most of the craziest nanny-state gone amok stories I have been hearing have been coming out of England these days. Well, England _is_ a particularly crazy nanny state. It’s no wonder people don’t trust the police anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-clarke-gun-possessor/517567/9 "2009-11-14T18:37:58Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > [Ignorantia iuris neminem excusat](http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/columnists/article1893141.ece) > **[Mitigating factor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extenuating_circumstances)** > > In criminal law, a mitigating factor, also known as an extenuating circumstance, is any information or evidence presented to the court regarding the defendant or the circumstances of the crime that might result in reduced charges or a lesser sentence. Unlike a legal defense, the presentation of mitigating factors will not result in the acquittal of a defendant. The opposite of a mitigating factor is an aggravating factor. > The Sentencing Council of England and Wales lists the following as possibl... ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-clarke-gun-possessor/517567/10 "2009-11-14T18:39:19Z")
Analogy - happened to someone I used to know: he got zapped and pulled over by the cops for riding his motorcycle at 120mph on the motorway. He explained to the cops that he had a human liver on ice in his top box that was needed urgently for a transplant at the John Radcliffe Hospital in Oxford. The cops then gave him a 100mph escort to the hospital, and backs were patted. He was charged and convicted of speeding, but because of his good intent, the magistrate didn’t impose a fine. (This was in the days before mandatory licence points.) ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-clarke-gun-possessor/517567/11 "2009-11-14T18:48:08Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > [Mitigating factor - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extenuating_circumstances) Your cite kinda backs up what I’m saying: > [@](#): > > According to English procedure, the jury has no power to determine the punishment to be awarded for an offense. The sentence, with certain exceptions in capital cases, is within the sole discretion of the judge, subject to the statutory prescriptions as to the kind and maximum of punishment. It is common practice for juries to add to their verdict, guilty or not guilty, a rider recommending the accused to mercy on the ground of grave provocation received, or other circumstances which in their view should mitigate the penalty. In this case, the jury didn’t add such a rider - no idea why. But the judge has discretion over sentencing. This thread seems a little like premature recreational outrage, given that he hasn’t yet been sentenced. ---
**Author:** ![Cort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/77aa72/32.png) [@Cort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cort)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-clarke-gun-possessor/517567/12 "2009-11-14T18:50:16Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > The cops then gave him a 100mph escort to the hospital, and backs were patted. He was charged and convicted of speeding, but because of his good intent, the magistrate didn’t impose a fine. (This was in the days before mandatory licence points.) There’s an underlying problem with both your example and the OP’s. The inflexibility of the law and the lack of disgression given to lower level law enforcement officers (who are often the ones most experienced and best placed to make common-sense judgement calls on incidents like this) mean that taxpayers money is being pissed away prosecuting good people like this soldier and your friend who should never have to put up with this kind of inconvenience. Let’s say that the judge at this soldier’s impending trial makes the only decent decision available to him, and lets him off scot free with an apology and some compensation for his time and trouble. How much money would have been wasted getting to this point? The issue isn’t whether this guy committed a crime according to the law, because we all know that he did. The issue is that the law is unjust and needs to be rewritten immediately to accommodate incidents like this. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-clarke-gun-possessor/517567/13 "2009-11-14T18:57:06Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > This thread seems a little like premature recreational outrage, given that he hasn’t yet been sentenced. I guess we’ll see. Maybe I’m wrong about American law, but here I would generally expect that if you’re found guilty, you **are** getting sentenced to something. Maybe American judges can let the guy go after a guilty verdict here as well. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-clarke-gun-possessor/517567/14 "2009-11-14T19:06:39Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I guess we’ll see. Maybe I’m wrong about American law, but here I would generally expect that if you’re found guilty, you **are** getting sentenced to something. Maybe American judges can let the guy go after a guilty verdict here as well. Can’t they impose a suspended sentence? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-clarke-gun-possessor/517567/15 "2009-11-14T19:10:57Z")
> [@Cort](#): > > How much money would have been wasted getting to this point? Don’t forget the PR value of a “show trial” highlighting the law to the crims etc. > [@](#): > > The issue is that the law is unjust and needs to be rewritten immediately to accommodate incidents like this. If there’s a mandatory minimum sentence, as some people are claiming, then I concur. However, if you look at the [precedent for firearms sentencing](http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/section_5_firearms_act/index.html), then it’s not so clear. I’m not defending the law here, by the way, but I am trying to quell some of the potential hysteria, as expressed in some of the replies already in this thread, and the one at SomethingAwful. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-clarke-gun-possessor/517567/16 "2009-11-14T19:55:13Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > Analogy - happened to someone I used to know: he got zapped and pulled over by the cops for riding his motorcycle at 120mph on the motorway. > > He explained to the cops that he had a human liver on ice in his top box that was needed urgently for a transplant at the John Radcliffe Hospital in Oxford. > > The cops then gave him a 100mph escort to the hospital, and backs were patted. He was charged and convicted of speeding, but because of his good intent, the magistrate didn’t impose a fine. (This was in the days before mandatory licence points.) Come on. You’re telling us that UK hospitals use unmarked, unescorted motorcycles to transport rare and delicate human organs? The most dangerous method of transportation on the road? I don’t believe you. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-clarke-gun-possessor/517567/17 "2009-11-14T20:10:52Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Come on. You’re telling us that UK hospitals use unmarked, unescorted motorcycles to transport rare and delicate human organs? The most dangerous method of transportation on the road? I don’t believe you. Well what can I say? I can’t prove anything: I’m just a guy on the internet. All I can tell you is that it happened when I worked for a courier company out of Reading in 1991. The company got a call asking for the fastest bike available, and “Dewy”, who had an 1100cc sports bike, jumped at the chance. He got pulled over in “chicken shit canyon” just before junction 6 of the M40. By the time he got to Headington, the cop car had radioed ahead and got local bike cops to seal off all the side roads leading to the hospital to give him a clear path to the hospital. Afraid I can offer no more proof of the incident, though [here’s](http://www.citysprint.co.uk/services/organ_and_tissue_transplant.html) another private courier company that does organ transportation. ETA: [here’s](http://www.fusejobs.co.uk/role-detail.asp?id=8) another job ad mentioning private couriers transporting organs for transplant. There are several more via Google. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-clarke-gun-possessor/517567/18 "2009-11-14T20:14:02Z")
Well, to be fair, motorcyclists going 120 MPH often are transporting organs to be donated. They usually just don’t know it yet. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-clarke-gun-possessor/517567/19 "2009-11-14T20:23:52Z")
The cops were just following the latest police motto: Deliver a liver and you’ll need bail for jail. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-clarke-gun-possessor/517567/20 "2009-11-14T22:05:30Z")
This is why I believe in retaining jury nullification. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-clarke-gun-possessor/517567.md?page=2)