# Paul Hornung **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 31, 2004, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-hornung/237517 "2004-03-31T14:19:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DadWagonDriver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/edb3f5/32.png) [@DadWagonDriver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DadWagonDriver)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2004, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-hornung/237517/61 "2004-04-01T01:12:45Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > And I’d like to see some documentation of being academic as being ‘acting white’. I can’t provide documentation, only anecdotal evidence. I have had black students at the middle school I did my observation at tell me that doing well is “the white thing to do”. Discussions back in my ed classes led to a whole lot more anecdotal evidence supporting this thought. On a side note, I wish this weren’t such an instant response system sometimes, as I could probably come up with a cite that supports this provided I had the time. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2004, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-hornung/237517/62 "2004-04-01T02:37:04Z")
> [@IzzyR](#): > > I don’t think you need extensive studies - it’s pretty obvious to most people. (Though maybe not to guys like Jimmy Chitwood.) I called you a dipshit because you said black athletes are obviously “dumb”. If all you were saying is that black athletes are proportionally more likely to be academic underachievers, then I agree with you and I take back the “dipshit”. If you really think they’re _dumber_, it stands. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2004, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-hornung/237517/63 "2004-04-01T07:16:24Z")
IIRC some years ago when the NCAA was tightening up academic eligibiity requirements for incoming college athletes, John Thompson, the (black) coach of the Georgetown Hoyas at the time, was up in arms about this, and was saying pretty directly that this would severely hurt the Georgetown program, and that increasing academic standards would specifically and differentially prevent black student athletes from being able to be recruited. Without getting in the nature-nuture scrum and just dealing with the operational facts at hand, anyone that claims that incoming black student athletes aren’t, on average, a notch or two below incoming white student athletes in academic preparation and ability is smoking crack. You can beat on IzzyR all day long for being a crypto racist (in fact I think he rather enjoys the tussle), but his point about Hornung being _factually_ accurate regarding the narrow issue of ND’s more demanding academic standards differentially impacting the recruitment of black athletes is hardly subject to challenge. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2004, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-hornung/237517/64 "2004-04-01T14:09:50Z")
Anyone that wants to read something somewhat smart about all this should check this one out again… > [@Pashnish Ewing](#): > > I’ll give it a shot. I think Horning used a little culturally insensitive shorthand to get his point across. Here is what I guess would be the longhand version: “We can’t stay as strict as we are as far as the academic structure is concerned because we’ve got to get more of the top 100 high school football recruits to sign with Notre Dame.” As it happens, a majority of those top 100 recruits will be young African-American men (no cites, sorry). I think it’s obvious that Hornung (I always thought it was _Horning_) is not saying ND needs more black female track stars on the football team, he is specifically talking about top football recruits, who have a reputation for not having the academic credentials to meet higher standards than the NCAA minimum. > > Now, I think Hornungs comments were very insensitive and show that he is out of touch with the way people address these issues today. It also insults those top level athletes that do make excellent grades. But I don’t think you can take his statements as proof that he thinks blacks are not as smart as whites. Although it may proove that he took a few too many shots to the head wearing those flimsy, old-timie leather helmets. It was “culturally insensitive shorthand” for putting two facts together. 1. Lowering academic standards will attract allow the football team access to a wider pool of recruits, white and black. (that’s just a tautology) 2. That wider pool of recruits will contain more black atheletes than white athletes just based on percentages of whites and blacks in Division I-A football. Now what is interesting is whether the wider pool of recruits would conist of a greater proportion of whites or blacks relative to the first group if you lower your standards. . .Huh? Well, look at it this way. . . Let’s say ND was in the middle of recruiting season and all of a sudden, they got the order “lower your academic standards.” (e.g. start considering kids that got a 750 but not 800 on the SAT) Now the pool of white kids they were looking at went from 1000 to 1100 and the pool of black kids they were looking at went from 5000 ro 5500 – 10% more people become eligible in both groups. Then, you could draw similarities about the “smarts” of white and black athletes. However, if the pool of white kids you were looking at went from 1000 to 2000 and the pool of black kids still went from 5000 to 5500 then you’d have to conclude that white athletes are less academically eligible for ND than black athletes (why? the lowering of restrictions didn’t help the black population as much so a greater proportion of them already met the original _tougher_ standard). So, is what he said _racist_? Probably not. It’s a reflection of how he understands the above. If he’s right, he’s right and you can’t really call him racist, just kind of dumb for pointing it out. If he’s wrong, he’s either ignorant of being wrong (and again, not really racist – just ignorant) or he’s knowlegable that he’s wrong and saying it anyway (and I’d call that racist). ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2004, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-hornung/237517/65 "2004-04-01T14:33:44Z")
> [@jarbaby](#): > > I don’t feel that black athletes are any less underacheiving than ALL athletes (white, hispanic, jewish or whathaveyou) who think they can get through life on their sports talent. Well I’ve provided several cites for this already. Perhaps you will look through them. > [@](#): > > And I’d like to see some documentation of being academic as being ‘acting white’. I’m not sure what you mean by “documentation”. This has been widely remarked on by people familiar with the circumstances. FWIW, here’s a study relating to such phenomena: [Cultural Conflicts in the Urban Classroom: Black student alienation and academic failure](http://www.brooklyn.liu.edu/education/home/eum/Jordan.pdf) > [@](#): > > Looking at school alienation and academic failure from a historical perspective, anthropologists Signithia Fordham (1996) and John Ogbu (1991), have studied the academic achievement of capable Black students. They found that although these students were capable of high academic achievement, they were not performing up to their potential. The reasons behind this puzzling behavior were that these Black students viewed successful school performance as “acting white.” (This particular sudy also discusses many other cultural issues that may hamper black perfomance in school). (Do a random search on “acting white” and see what turns up. This has been extensively studied.) ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2004, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-hornung/237517/66 "2004-04-01T15:09:41Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > And I’d like to see some documentation of being academic as being ‘acting white’. This is not held invariably by all black Americans, but it is a common enough perception that [Chris Rock](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0200529/) can make a joke about it in his 1996 stand-up special _Bring the Pain_: > [@](#): > > **So you got a Master’s degree … you’re my master now, bitch?** The above quote comes during a lengthy monologue about how some black people look down on success in school, yet revere those returning from incarceration. If the perception that academic success = “acting white” wasn’t widely known (if not widely held across all social strata), Rock’s joke wouldn’t have worked. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2004, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-hornung/237517/67 "2004-04-01T15:53:22Z")
**IzzyR** - You gotta join. Please join. Say that you’ll join. Exchanges like this one - > [@Munch](#): > > What in the world was I thinking? > [@IzzyR](#): > > It’s hard for me to say for sure what you were thinking. But now that you ask, my best guess is that you were thinking this: “hmm… I’m out on a limb here, and my claim that black athletes are not disproportionately likely to be academic underachievers is looking increasingly tenuous in the face of mounting evidence to the contrary. So how do I slip out of this and save face? Hey, why don’t I try changing the topic? That worked a lot of other times…” > > But again, this is all a guess. 😃 I cannot live without. I’ll sponsor you. Heck, I’ll sponsor your whole family. I’ll adopt “ **IzzyR** RoXX!” as my sig. I’ll dance the Electric Boogaloo naked in Macy’s window on New Year’s Day. Name your price. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2004, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-hornung/237517/68 "2004-04-01T17:19:59Z")
## This is purely annecdotal evidence; ## When I went to High School the three very best athletes in track, football, and basketball were blacks. They also had a very hard time making the grades to stay eligible and sometimes had to miss part of the season because of grades. I don`t agree with Hornungs delivery, but I also think that the evidence supports his basic assertion. In general, the top three sports have a higher percentage of black athletes. Therefore, one could conclude that by lowering the standards you would attract more athletes of every race, and since the percentage of blacks is already higher, you would naturally attract more blacks. Hence, possibly increasing the talent pool on the teams. Simple math, no racism involved, just the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2004, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-hornung/237517/69 "2004-04-01T17:25:26Z")
> [@astro](#): > > IIRC some years ago when the NCAA was tightening up academic eligibiity requirements for incoming college athletes, John Thompson, the (black) coach of the Georgetown Hoyas at the time, was up in arms about this, and was saying pretty directly that this would severely hurt the Georgetown program, and that increasing academic standards would specifically and differentially prevent black student athletes from being able to be recruited. You are exactly correct. People would have screamed “Racism” if the standards were set higher. Now that someone comes out and says that lowering the standards would increase black enrollment, they get called a racist. **When the term _racist_ is used no-one is a winner.** ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-hornung/237517/70 "2004-04-02T14:22:06Z")
Not to dredge up any more lines of argument, but here are Willingham’s comments regarding the situation: > [@](#): > > “I believe the things that were said really have no merit, so therefore they deserve no real comment from me,” Willingham said after spring practice Thursday. “Let’s move forward.” If that isn’t the definition of class, I don’t know what is. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-hornung/237517/71 "2004-04-02T15:19:47Z")
**Shodan** , the die is cast. I don’t have a financial or philosophical objection to paying $5, but the truth is that I’ve been ambivalent about my membership here for some time. On the one hand I find the place amusing and entertaining (& occasionally informative). OTOH, I have a nagging feeling that I am spending time here that could be more productively spent elsewhere (and as I generally post from work, should perhaps more properly be spent elsewhere). But I kind of meandered along here from day to day, not committing to either stay or leave. But signing up for membership represents a decision to stick around for a year, and I won’t do it. And when the issue first came up a while back I was thinking along these lines, and I told myself that I wouldn’t sign up, so now if I do I will feel that I’m succumbing to temptation. So I’m trapped by my conscience. I’m sure I’ll miss all these rollicking debates, with all these godless heathens and pinko commies. But life is earnest and life is short. Not all fun and games, you know. 😉 **Munch** , could you tell me what your comment about Willingham’s class has to do with this thread? I have my own theory, but I’m curious to hear your explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-hornung/237517/72 "2004-04-02T15:24:39Z")
Read the OP again, Izzy. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-hornung/237517/73 "2004-04-02T15:41:47Z")
Hmm… good point there. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-hornung/237517/74 "2004-04-02T17:40:49Z")
(_clings desperately to **IzzyR** ’s leg weeping)_ “Don’t go! Don’t go!” _(pauses to sniffle, then begins humping the leg)_ “Pleeeeeeze don’t go!” Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-hornung/237517/75 "2004-04-02T17:56:26Z")
**Munch** , why is what Willingham said showing class? That he avoided the truth and made Hornung look like a fool means that he has class? Just because he gave the response that you concur with? I think the whole blowup is bullshit. Afterall what is Affimative Action but the lowering of standards to get more of (X) type of person in to (Y) type of position. This goes on everwhere. This is nothing new, and what Hornung said is what the left has always wanted - to give an unfair advantage to those who, for whatever reason, are disadvantaged. Suddenly his stance is racist and classless, when all along this is what minorities and the left have been fighting for - an unequal advantage to those who claim inequality? It`s a joke, really. The whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-hornung/237517/76 "2004-04-02T18:04:02Z")
> [@Uncommon Sense](#): > > **Munch** , why is what Willingham said showing class? That he avoided the truth and made Hornung look like a fool means that he has class? No, what he said shows class because he knows that his actions have, and will, speak louder than words. They have his entire career. He also knows that his actions and ability as a quality football coach will have more impact on Irish football than a stupid comment made by Paul Hornung ever will. His words don’t make Hornung look like a fool, _Hornung_’s words make Hornung look like a fool. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-hornung/237517/77 "2004-04-02T20:30:53Z")
Yeah, c’mon **Izzy** , you’re needed here. I mean, this thread doesn’t show you at your best, but elsewhere you’ve laid down a classic body of work with witty commentary, exposing claptrap and bigots galore. JOIN UP! **Shodan’s** already offered to pay the freight. And I’ll kick in postage. ---
**Author:** ![GoHeels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b3f665/32.png) [@GoHeels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GoHeels)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2004, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-hornung/237517/78 "2004-04-03T13:57:07Z")
> [@astro](#): > > IIRC some years ago when the NCAA was tightening up academic eligibiity requirements for incoming college athletes, John Thompson, the (black) coach of the Georgetown Hoyas at the time, was up in arms about this, and was saying pretty directly that this would severely hurt the Georgetown program, and that increasing academic standards would specifically and differentially prevent black student athletes from being able to be recruited. Thompson was so pissed at the idea of tightening academic eligibility requirements that he actually boycotted a game in 1989 to protest.([http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/gtown/longterm/1999/thompson/archives/thomp011589.htm](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/gtown/longterm/1999/thompson/archives/thomp011589.htm)) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-hornung/237517.md?page=3)