I can’t provide documentation, only anecdotal evidence. I have had black students at the middle school I did my observation at tell me that doing well is “the white thing to do”. Discussions back in my ed classes led to a whole lot more anecdotal evidence supporting this thought.
On a side note, I wish this weren’t such an instant response system sometimes, as I could probably come up with a cite that supports this provided I had the time.
I called you a dipshit because you said black athletes are obviously “dumb”.
If all you were saying is that black athletes are proportionally more likely to be academic underachievers, then I agree with you and I take back the “dipshit”. If you really think they’re dumber, it stands.
IIRC some years ago when the NCAA was tightening up academic eligibiity requirements for incoming college athletes, John Thompson, the (black) coach of the Georgetown Hoyas at the time, was up in arms about this, and was saying pretty directly that this would severely hurt the Georgetown program, and that increasing academic standards would specifically and differentially prevent black student athletes from being able to be recruited.
Without getting in the nature-nuture scrum and just dealing with the operational facts at hand, anyone that claims that incoming black student athletes aren’t, on average, a notch or two below incoming white student athletes in academic preparation and ability is smoking crack. You can beat on IzzyR all day long for being a crypto racist (in fact I think he rather enjoys the tussle), but his point about Hornung being factually accurate regarding the narrow issue of ND’s more demanding academic standards differentially impacting the recruitment of black athletes is hardly subject to challenge.
Anyone that wants to read something somewhat smart about all this should check this one out again…
It was “culturally insensitive shorthand” for putting two facts together.
Lowering academic standards will attract allow the football team access to a wider pool of recruits, white and black. (that’s just a tautology)
That wider pool of recruits will contain more black atheletes than white athletes just based on percentages of whites and blacks in Division I-A football.
Now what is interesting is whether the wider pool of recruits would conist of a greater proportion of whites or blacks relative to the first group if you lower your standards. . .Huh? Well, look at it this way. . .
Let’s say ND was in the middle of recruiting season and all of a sudden, they got the order “lower your academic standards.” (e.g. start considering kids that got a 750 but not 800 on the SAT) Now the pool of white kids they were looking at went from 1000 to 1100 and the pool of black kids they were looking at went from 5000 ro 5500 – 10% more people become eligible in both groups. Then, you could draw similarities about the “smarts” of white and black athletes.
However, if the pool of white kids you were looking at went from 1000 to 2000 and the pool of black kids still went from 5000 to 5500 then you’d have to conclude that white athletes are less academically eligible for ND than black athletes (why? the lowering of restrictions didn’t help the black population as much so a greater proportion of them already met the original tougher standard).
So, is what he said racist? Probably not. It’s a reflection of how he understands the above. If he’s right, he’s right and you can’t really call him racist, just kind of dumb for pointing it out. If he’s wrong, he’s either ignorant of being wrong (and again, not really racist – just ignorant) or he’s knowlegable that he’s wrong and saying it anyway (and I’d call that racist).
Well I’ve provided several cites for this already. Perhaps you will look through them.
I’m not sure what you mean by “documentation”. This has been widely remarked on by people familiar with the circumstances. FWIW, here’s a study relating to such phenomena: Cultural Conflicts in the Urban Classroom: Black student alienation and academic failure
(This particular sudy also discusses many other cultural issues that may hamper black perfomance in school).
(Do a random search on “acting white” and see what turns up. This has been extensively studied.)
This is not held invariably by all black Americans, but it is a common enough perception that Chris Rock can make a joke about it in his 1996 stand-up special Bring the Pain:
The above quote comes during a lengthy monologue about how some black people look down on success in school, yet revere those returning from incarceration. If the perception that academic success = “acting white” wasn’t widely known (if not widely held across all social strata), Rock’s joke wouldn’t have worked.
IzzyR -
You gotta join. Please join. Say that you’ll join.
Exchanges like this one -
I cannot live without.
I’ll sponsor you. Heck, I’ll sponsor your whole family. I’ll adopt “IzzyR RoXX!” as my sig. I’ll dance the Electric Boogaloo naked in Macy’s window on New Year’s Day.
Name your price.
Regards,
Shodan
I don`t agree with Hornungs delivery, but I also think that the evidence supports his basic assertion.
In general, the top three sports have a higher percentage of black athletes. Therefore, one could conclude that by lowering the standards you would attract more athletes of every race, and since the percentage of blacks is already higher, you would naturally attract more blacks. Hence, possibly increasing the talent pool on the teams.
Simple math, no racism involved, just the truth.
You are exactly correct.
People would have screamed “Racism” if the standards were set higher.
Now that someone comes out and says that lowering the standards would increase black enrollment, they get called a racist.
When the term racist is used no-one is a winner.
Not to dredge up any more lines of argument, but here are Willingham’s comments regarding the situation:
If that isn’t the definition of class, I don’t know what is.
Shodan, the die is cast. I don’t have a financial or philosophical objection to paying $5, but the truth is that I’ve been ambivalent about my membership here for some time. On the one hand I find the place amusing and entertaining (& occasionally informative). OTOH, I have a nagging feeling that I am spending time here that could be more productively spent elsewhere (and as I generally post from work, should perhaps more properly be spent elsewhere). But I kind of meandered along here from day to day, not committing to either stay or leave. But signing up for membership represents a decision to stick around for a year, and I won’t do it. And when the issue first came up a while back I was thinking along these lines, and I told myself that I wouldn’t sign up, so now if I do I will feel that I’m succumbing to temptation. So I’m trapped by my conscience.
I’m sure I’ll miss all these rollicking debates, with all these godless heathens and pinko commies. But life is earnest and life is short. Not all fun and games, you know. 
Munch, could you tell me what your comment about Willingham’s class has to do with this thread? I have my own theory, but I’m curious to hear your explanation.
Read the OP again, Izzy.
Hmm… good point there.
(clings desperately to IzzyR’s leg weeping)
“Don’t go! Don’t go!”
(pauses to sniffle, then begins humping the leg)
“Pleeeeeeze don’t go!”
Regards,
Shodan
Munch, why is what Willingham said showing class? That he avoided the truth and made Hornung look like a fool means that he has class?
Just because he gave the response that you concur with?
I think the whole blowup is bullshit. Afterall what is Affimative Action but the lowering of standards to get more of (X) type of person in to (Y) type of position.
This goes on everwhere. This is nothing new, and what Hornung said is what the left has always wanted - to give an unfair advantage to those who, for whatever reason, are disadvantaged. Suddenly his stance is racist and classless, when all along this is what minorities and the left have been fighting for - an unequal advantage to those who claim inequality?
It`s a joke, really. The whole thing.
No, what he said shows class because he knows that his actions have, and will, speak louder than words. They have his entire career. He also knows that his actions and ability as a quality football coach will have more impact on Irish football than a stupid comment made by Paul Hornung ever will. His words don’t make Hornung look like a fool, Hornung’s words make Hornung look like a fool.
Yeah, c’mon Izzy, you’re needed here. I mean, this thread doesn’t show you at your best, but elsewhere you’ve laid down a classic body of work with witty commentary, exposing claptrap and bigots galore. JOIN UP!
Shodan’s already offered to pay the freight. And I’ll kick in postage.
Thompson was so pissed at the idea of tightening academic eligibility requirements that he actually boycotted a game in 1989 to protest.(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/gtown/longterm/1999/thompson/archives/thomp011589.htm)