# Paul Krugman: Poverty is poison **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 18, 2008, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-krugman-poverty-is-poison/438088 "2008-02-18T12:05:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-krugman-poverty-is-poison/438088/61 "2008-02-19T20:00:50Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Thanks for the cite. Do you have one that demonstrates your point? Here’s what I asked for -Now, all you need to show are the studies demonstrating toxic levels of lead in US children, that this correlates with poverty, that it is widespread across the United States, and that it is coming from toxin-producing plants in poor neighborhoods. You know, what you said. [/QUOTE] Actually, not what I said. I said: > [@](#): > > Exposure to a number of environmental toxins is detrimental to neurological development, and such exposure is greater among the poor. This is exactly what I said, and exactly what I demonstrated with the cite. Try to be honest and have some integrity. If you want to contend that neurological deficits are not related to poor academic and social achievement, I’m going to have to ask _you_ for a cite to that effect. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-krugman-poverty-is-poison/438088/62 "2008-02-19T20:07:45Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] I don’t know about that - is it really that hard to graduate from high school? [/quote] Assuming that rigorous standards are imposed, then yeah, I would say it’s difficult for a lot of people. > [@](#): > > I am sure that the mentally retarded are over-represented among the chronically poor, but there are things like SSI and so forth for the genuinely disabled. ISTM they would tend to be included under a different heading - EMR rather than lazy. If somebody has an IQ of 77, would you call them “retarded”? Technically, I would say they are not. Anyway, there are a lot of people in America who are not retarded in the sense that they are drooling idiots, but who are pretty slow. To the point where they have trouble functioning in an industrialized society. Should we give them SSI? Possibly. I think that if at all possible, people should work. Also, the country might not have enough money to give SSI to all of these borderline retarded people. But it’s worth considering as the country gets wealthier and wealthier. > [@](#): > > It seems to me that for the less intelligent, an emphasis on not having children out of wedlock is even more vital - not merely for eugenic reasons, but to localize the poverty to one person without involving an innocent child in the mix. There may be some practical sense to that, but obviously it’s a very touchy subject. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-krugman-poverty-is-poison/438088/63 "2008-02-19T20:15:06Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] That having been said, I would recommend addressing one of the major contributors to chronic poverty - unwed parenting. Fathers who abandon their children should be ostracized and publicly denigrated in the media. Women who get pregnant without being married should be made to feel that they have made a stupid decision. Treat it like smoking - marginalize the behavior, make it inconvenient. publicize the negative effects. [/QUOTE] I’m thinking of a word that starts with “A”. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-krugman-poverty-is-poison/438088/64 "2008-02-19T20:17:39Z")
You don’t seem to understand, **Hentor**. Stories about seeing guys with fancy cars and gold teeth, thats a cite. All you got is a bunch of numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-krugman-poverty-is-poison/438088/65 "2008-02-19T20:21:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That having been said, I would recommend addressing one of the major contributors to chronic poverty - unwed parenting. Fathers who abandon their children should be ostracized and publicly denigrated in the media. Women who get pregnant without being married should be made to feel that they have made a stupid decision. Treat it like smoking - marginalize the behavior, make it inconvenient. publicize the negative effects. I just noticed this, thanks to **sqweels** pointing it out. You know one thing that has been found to increase two-parent households? Having money! From: Costello, E. Jane; Compton, Scott N; Keeler, Gordon; Angold, Adrian. Relationships Between Poverty and Psychopathology: A Natural Experiment. [References]. [Journal; Peer Reviewed Journal] JAMA: Journal of the American Medical Association. Vol 290(15) Oct 2003, 2023-2029. Abstract: Tested the role of social selection vs social causation of childhood psychopathology using a natural experiment. A representative population sample of 1,420 rural children aged 9 to 13 years at intake were given annual psychiatric assessments for 8 years (1993-2000). One quarter of the sample were American Indian, and the remaining were predominantly White. Halfway through the study, a casino opening on the Indian reservation gave every American Indian an income supplement that increased annually. This increase moved 14% of study families out of poverty, while 53% remained poor, and 32% were never poor. Incomes of non-Indian families were unaffected. Results show that before the casino opened, the persistently poor and ex-poor children had more psychiatric symptoms (4.38 and 4.28, respectively) than the never-poor children (2.75), but after the opening levels among the ex-poor fell to those of the never-poor children, while levels among those who were persistently poor remained high. The effect was specific to symptoms of conduct and oppositional defiant disorders. Anxiety and depression symptoms were unaffected. Similar results were found in non-Indian children whose families moved out of poverty during the same period. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2007 APA, all rights reserved) Costello and colleagues also found that the ex-poor experienced significant changes as follows: The number of single parent families decreased, the number of two-income households increased, and a measure of the time demands on the parents decreased. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-krugman-poverty-is-poison/438088/66 "2008-02-19T20:23:08Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] For one, stop shitting on the poor. The first way I would do this would be to find alternative ways of funding public education in America. Reliance on local tax revenues do not resolve the disparities, which result in an uneven chance at a reasonable early, primary or secondary education and thus an uneven chance at securing the results of such an education. If these kids are part of America, and if the consequences of failing to secure the educational blessings of liberty are borne by Americans, we should all have a stake in resolving the problem. That’s what I propose. Clearly it’s only a piece of the picture. The next one that I would address would be health care, but I’ll stop here for now. [/QUOTE] Would it surprise you to learn just the sort of school finance reform you propose has been tried already? Probably it would, because in your mind we are doing nothing but “shitting on the poor.” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-krugman-poverty-is-poison/438088/67 "2008-02-19T20:25:30Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] It seems to me that for the less intelligent, an emphasis on not having children out of wedlock is even more vital - not merely for eugenic reasons, but to localize the poverty to one person without involving an innocent child in the mix. Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] I assume then that you support free and easy access to birth control, birth control education at an early age, (not abstinence-only education, which we know doesn’t work very well) and free access to abortion when that is necessary? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-krugman-poverty-is-poison/438088/68 "2008-02-19T20:34:35Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] For one, stop shitting on the poor. The first way I would do this would be to find alternative ways of funding public education in America. Reliance on local tax revenues do not resolve the disparities, which result in an uneven chance at a reasonable early, primary or secondary education and thus an uneven chance at securing the results of such an education. If these kids are part of America, and if the consequences of failing to secure the educational blessings of liberty are borne by Americans, we should all have a stake in resolving the problem. That’s what I propose. Clearly it’s only a piece of the picture. The next one that I would address would be health care, but I’ll stop here for now. [/QUOTE] In CA, at least, all property taxes go to the state and get reallocated just for this reason. I’m not sure it’s helped all that much. First, education funding becomes a political football, cut whenever there is a statewide budget crisis. Second, the allocation may not be fair. We’re frozen at the rates per child set when the state took over funding, and, since LA did very well, this isn’t going to change. Finally, even funding isn’t good enough. Districts with high numbers of non English speakers and high numbers of kids from problem families will need more money than districts where most kids have good households with educated parents. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-krugman-poverty-is-poison/438088/69 "2008-02-19T20:55:15Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] Actually, not what I said. I said: This is exactly what I said, and exactly what I demonstrated with the cite. Try to be honest and have some integrity. If you want to contend that neurological deficits are not related to poor academic and social achievement, I’m going to have to ask _you_ for a cite to that effect. [/QUOTE] So you don’t have any cites that show toxic levels of lead in US children, that this correlates with poverty, that it is widespread across the United States, and that it is coming from toxin-producing plants in poor neighborhoods. Actually, I knew you didn’t, and I was merely forcing you to demonstrate it. > [@Voyager](#): > > I assume then that you support free and easy access to birth control, birth control education at an early age, (not abstinence-only education, which we know doesn’t work very well) and free access to abortion when that is necessary? We were talking about retarded people, and I would think that education would be less successful with them as with a more general population. But mandatory sterilization is a controversial topic. You could make a better case for the retarded than with others. But something like Norplant for long-term welfare cases might be a good idea. Would you agree with my major point - that siring or giving birth illegitimately ought to be stigmatized? Many cases of long-term welfare dependency start when a woman gets pregnant out of wedlock. Hopefully strong social pressure against such behavior could play a part in minimizing its occurrence. > [@brazil84](#): > > If somebody has an IQ of 77, would you call them “retarded”? Technically, I would say they are not. I would, actually. I think that is the definition. Whether that disables them from consideration as adults is a different issue. It seems to me to expect a mentally retarded person to work his way into the middle class is a trifle harsh. But I rather doubt if most of the long-term poor are actually mentally retarded. We have already seen **Hentor** ’s unwillingness to back up his belief that lead poisoning is a major cause of American poverty. I am reluctant to assume that it’s mental retardation without some cites. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-krugman-poverty-is-poison/438088/70 "2008-02-19T20:55:39Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] Would it surprise you to learn just the sort of school finance reform you propose has been tried already? Probably it would, because in your mind we are doing nothing but “shitting on the poor.” [/QUOTE] But to be fair. I know of no circumstances where they’ve attempted to counteract the negative effects of environment. A lot of “soft money” is spent to educate the well off in this country. That is usually not factored into school budgets. They don’t factor in the private tutors, SAT prep classes, nor the money parents with means privately spend to “educate” their child. The reality is that the positive education a poor kid receives takes place almost entirely within the four wall of a school; and much of that is undone by the negative stuff going on outside the school. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-krugman-poverty-is-poison/438088/71 "2008-02-19T21:13:23Z")
[QUOTE=brickbacon] But to be fair. [/quote] What are you talking about? A few posts back, you said this: > [@](#): > > Well, apart from a little tinkering around the edges here and there, all we’ve ever tried is shitting on the poor So asked you this: > [@](#): > > What exactly would you propose trying? And you proposed school finance reform. Which has already been tried in many different ways. Yours is exactly the sort of attitude that I object to. Believe it or not, many governments – state, local, and federal – have been trying in good faith in many different ways to help Americans at the bottom of the economic ladder. Some of these efforts have succeeded, and some of these efforts have failed. But to come from a perspective of ignorance and dismiss all of these efforts as “shitting on the poor” is simply unreasonable. In my opinion. > [@](#): > > I know of no circumstances where they’ve attempted to counteract the negative effects of environment. Umm, did you ever hear of the “Head Start Program”? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-krugman-poverty-is-poison/438088/72 "2008-02-19T21:41:19Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] I would, actually. I think that is the definition. [/quote] As I understand things, the “official” cutoff is 75. So by that definition, somebody with IQ 77 is not retarded. > [@](#): > > It seems to me to expect a mentally retarded person to work his way into the middle class is a trifle harsh. But I rather doubt if most of the long-term poor are actually mentally retarded. I would say that a lot of them are not retarded by the official cutoff, but are still slow enough that they will face a lot of extra hurdles. Some of them are retarded by the official definition, but are not drooling idiots. Let’s define “borderline retarded” as someone with an IQ between 65 and 85. I bet that a large percentage of long term poor in America are “borderline retarded” by my definition. > [@](#): > > I am reluctant to assume that it’s mental retardation without some cites. I think that “mental retardation” is not quite the right phrase, since I think the problem affects many people who are not mentally retarded by the usual definition. However, I will try to find a cite for the relationship between poverty and lower cognitive skills. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-krugman-poverty-is-poison/438088/73 "2008-02-19T21:41:26Z")
Environment. Water, dirt, air. Environment. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-krugman-poverty-is-poison/438088/74 "2008-02-19T22:03:28Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] However, I will try to find a cite for the relationship between poverty and lower cognitive skills. [/QUOTE] Take a look at “Why g Matters: The Complexity of Everyday Life” published in 1997 by Linda Gottfredson. It’s available here: > **[Linda Gottfredson](https://www1.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/index.html)** ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-krugman-poverty-is-poison/438088/75 "2008-02-19T22:06:45Z")
Thanks, I’ve got a meeting, but I will have a look later. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-krugman-poverty-is-poison/438088/76 "2008-02-19T22:18:25Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] What are you talking about? A few posts back, you said this: So asked you this: [/QUOTE] No, I didn’t. [QUOTE=brazil84] And you proposed school finance reform. Which has already been tried in many different ways. [/QUOTE] Again, wrong person. [QUOTE=brazil84] Yours is exactly the sort of attitude that I object to. Believe it or not, many governments – state, local, and federal – have been trying in good faith in many different ways to help Americans at the bottom of the economic ladder. Some of these efforts have succeeded, and some of these efforts have failed. [/QUOTE] What attitude? If you have any cites of things that contradict anything that I have said, please provide them. You are confusing me with someone else. [QUOTE=brazil84] But to come from a perspective of ignorance and dismiss all of these efforts as “shitting on the poor” is simply unreasonable. In my opinion. [/QUOTE] Didn’t say that. If you meant to quote someone else, please include their name next time. [QUOTE=brazil84] Umm, did you ever hear of the “Head Start Program”? [/QUOTE] While head start is a step in the right direction, it DOES NOT effectively counteract the negatives, nor does it account for the positive effects of environment. It does some, but not nearly enough. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-krugman-poverty-is-poison/438088/77 "2008-02-19T22:19:35Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] What exactly would you propose trying? [/QUOTE] When reading [this recent thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=455100), it struck me how many of the respondents, were put in the “worst time of their life” because of unexpected medical bills. Universal health care would go a long way towards fighting poverty as people won’t fall into poverty due to a simple accident. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-krugman-poverty-is-poison/438088/78 "2008-02-19T22:26:18Z")
[QUOTE=brickbacon] Again, wrong person. [/quote] My apologies. I confused you with another poster. > [@](#): > > While head start is a step in the right direction, it DOES NOT effectively counteract the negatives, nor does it account for the positive effects of environment. It does some, but not nearly enough. Perhaps, but . . . here’s what you said: > [@brickbacon](#): > > I know of no circumstances where they’ve attempted to counteract the negative effects of environment. This was false. As far as headstart not being enough goes, how do you reach that conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-krugman-poverty-is-poison/438088/79 "2008-02-19T22:38:53Z")
[QUOTE=Zebra] When reading [this recent thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=455100), it struck me how many of the respondents, were put in the “worst time of their life” because of unexpected medical bills. Universal health care would go a long way towards fighting poverty as people won’t fall into poverty due to a simple accident. [/QUOTE] I doubt it. Again – based on my general experience – lower class people usually don’t pay for healthcare anyway. They just go to the emergency room when they are sick and ignore any resulting bills that aren’t covered by Medicaid, health insurance, or other programs. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-krugman-poverty-is-poison/438088/80 "2008-02-19T22:59:55Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] So you don’t have any cites that show toxic levels of lead in US children, that this correlates with poverty, [/quote] I did, in fact, already provide you with a comprehensive cite to this effect. Even if you didn’t read the article I provided for you (I knew you wouldn’t, because why disabuse yourself of ignorance), you can’t avoid a responsibility to at least read the portion of the abstract I quoted for you. I’ll do so again for you “Elevated lead concentrations in the blood are more common among children living in poverty and there is some evidence that socioeconomic status influences associations between lead and child outcomes.” Perhaps you don’t know what “socioeconomic status” means, but surely you can see that the cite I provided does link lead levels with poverty. > [@](#): > > that it is widespread across the United States, and that it is coming from toxin-producing plants in poor neighborhoods. The review was based on multiple studies, so it is fairly safe to assume that the results generalize across locations. As to the source of the toxins, it’s rather irrelevant, since they are higher in impoverished areas. Unless you want to argue that the poor are somehow bodily producing lead, we can hold off on debating where the lead is coming from. Suffice it to say that environmental toxins are higher among the poor, and are associated with neurological deficits. If you need me to find cites that neurological deficits are associated with poorer academic performance, and that poorer academic performance is associated with lower levels of income, I’ll understand that you are just playing games to elude coming to grips with the point. As I said, knowing _you_, I knew it was folly to bother with actual data and scientific evidence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-krugman-poverty-is-poison/438088.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-krugman-poverty-is-poison/438088.md?page=5)