# Paul Ryan fired the House Chaplain. Why do we have a House Chaplain? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2018, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448 "2018-05-02T02:27:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/21 "2018-05-02T12:42:43Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Congressmen have been shot at. They, and their colleagues, might be distraught and in need of comforting, too. And that’s a good reason to violate the Constitution? They can’t go to a local place of worship or call their holy man of choice from their home town? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/22 "2018-05-02T12:43:00Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Congressmen have been shot at. They, and their colleagues, might be distraught and in need of comforting, too. So have some on call. There are probably dozens of churches where a chaplain could be in the Capitol within 10 minutes. The primary purpose of the chaplain is not to give guidance and comfort to congressmen, it’s to make them look good to the Bible-thumpers. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/23 "2018-05-02T12:49:03Z")
Y’know, I’m not bothered by an institutional chaplaincy as long as it is NOT used as a way to officially endorse one or another doctrine. The Legislative chaplaincy (part-time) back in PR annoys me because it is obnoxiously\* “Of Course EVERYONE here MUST be Christian!! You can only be a real Puertorrican if you are Christian!!!”\* about it. In this US Congress case I am bothered by the notion that the institutional chaplaincy must accommodate the ideologies or social leanings of those to whom it ministers. A good minister does not pander to the flock. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/24 "2018-05-02T14:03:05Z")
> [@Drum\_God](#): > > I’m not anti-religion and I’m not anti-religious people serving in Congress. But, I don’t understand why we taxpayers are footing the bill for an official Chaplain for the House of Representatives. I assume that he has a bit of office space somewhere and at least a minimal staff. Someone has to answer the phone and take appointments. Then, he’s going to have expenses, pension, and so forth. I assume the Senate has their version of all this, too. > > This is the 21st century. I can understand a member of Congress may wish to consult with a pastor, priest, rabbi, or imam for spiritual guidance. So, why can’t these members of Congress call their home ministers on the telephone. Here in 2018, we have instant face-to-face communication. Call, Skype, or FaceTime the minister who sees you in church every Sunday when you’re home. Call or visit one of the hundreds of ministers who already live and work in the DC area. > > Seriously, what do we need this guy for? Not sure if anyone has bothered to look it up, but since I had no idea I just Googled it. [Here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaplain_of_the_United_States_House_of_Representatives) is the wiki on it: > [@](#): > > The Chaplain of the United States House of Representatives is one of the officers of the United States House of Representatives. The House cites the first half of Article 1, Section 2, Clause 5 in the United States Constitution as giving it the authority to elect a Chaplain, “The House of Representatives shall choose their speaker and other officers”.[1] > > The office of the Clerk of the House explains “The other officers have been created and their duties defined by the rules of the House, which also are made pursuant to the authority of the Constitution, hence one of the rules prescribes the duties of the Chaplain.”[1] > > In addition to opening proceedings with prayer, the Chaplain provides pastoral counseling to the House community, coordinates the scheduling of guest chaplains, and arranges memorial services for the House and its staff. In the past, Chaplains have performed marriage and funeral ceremonies for House members. > > Chaplains are elected as individuals and not as representatives of any religious community, body, or organization. As of 2011, all House Chaplains have been Christian but can be members of any religion or faith group. Guest Chaplains, recommended by congressional members to deliver the session’s opening prayer in place of the House Chaplain, have represented many different religious groups, including Judaism and Islam. > [@](#): > > Duties > > The Chaplain of the United States House of Representatives is chosen to “perform ceremonial, symbolic, and pastoral duties”.[7] These responsibilities include opening House sessions with a prayer or coordinating the delivery of the prayer by guest chaplains recommended by members of the House.[8][9][10] > > The House Chaplain is also responsible for “hosting” Guest Chaplains on the day they deliver prayers.[11] > > The Chaplain also provides pastoral care for members of Congress, their staffs, and their families, and provides or oversees religious programs such as Bible study, reflection groups, and the weekly Senate Prayer Breakfast.[8] The Chaplain also often presides over religious ceremonies such as funerals and memorial services for current or past members and participates, offering delivering the invocation or benediction, at many official U.S. ceremonies, including White House events.[12] In a January 2011 post on “On Watch in Washington”, the Chaplain of the Senate as well as the Chaplain of the House were included as part of “Obama’s Spiritual Cabinet”.[12] > > Along with the Senate Chaplain, the House Chaplain is responsible for overseeing the Capitol Prayer Room, located near the Capitol Rotunda.[13] Dedicated in 1955, there are no worship services held in the room, nor is it normally open to the public.[13] Instead, as described by Sam Rayburn during the room’s dedication, it is a place for members “who want to be alone with their God.”[13] > > While all House Chaplains (as of 2011) have been Christian, Guest Chaplains have been selected to deliver occasional prayers to open House sessions “for many decades”,[7] and have represented both Christian and non-Christian faith groups, including Judaism and Islam.[14][15][16] Congressional members are limited to one Guest Chaplain recommendation per Congress,[17] So, it seems to be a hold over from a previous age. I am unsure of how much pastoral care is still needed by the members of congress, their staff or their families today, though I suppose it’s a fairly large body of people so perhaps there are still some that need and use this service. I can’t find what it costs the US per year, but even if we pay the guy a million dollars a year and provide him with a large staff it’s such a minuscule amount of money that it’s not even a rounding era on the Congressional budget. Sure, we could do without it, and it doesn’t seem to be as necessary as it probably was when Washington DC was a small town and you had to travel long distances from your state to live and work there, but I also don’t see any huge need to get rid of the office either. Probably why it’s still around is it isn’t worth the political capital to do away with it. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/25 "2018-05-02T14:17:54Z")
A lot of government agencies have chaplains, including public hospitals. But in my experience, most of them have multiple, volunteer chaplains of different faiths. The exceptions are the agencies that run prisons and jails, police departments and fire departments which tend to pay their chaplains, although it may be considered to be a part-time job. ``` I don't see why Congress can't manage with volunteers and there certainly shouldn't only be one. ``` ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/26 "2018-05-02T14:25:19Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > And that’s a good reason to violate the Constitution? Having a House Chaplain does not violate the Establishment Clause. Do you have a court ruling showing otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/27 "2018-05-02T14:26:56Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Congressmen have been shot at. They, and their colleagues, might be distraught and in need of comforting, too. They can count their money if they want to feel better. There’s no need for a House Chaplain, especially with this bunch. Their willingness to fire this one for no good reason shows why they have no use for such spiritual guidance as a chaplain might claim to provide. But firing this old dude is low, they could have - and should have - retired the position along with the man when his time came. Presuming the necessity and usefulness of such a ceremonial role was what Paul Ryan had in mind when he fired the guy, which I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/28 "2018-05-02T15:43:12Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > A lot of government agencies have chaplains, including public hospitals. But in my experience, most of them have multiple, volunteer chaplains of different faiths. (…) > > ``` > I don't see why Congress can't manage with volunteers and there certainly shouldn't only be one. > > ``` The first part is similar to how it works in Spain; those chaplains who are assigned full-time to the Armed Forces and Guardia Civil draw the pay which corresponds to their grade. The only references I find to chaplains in our Parliament is to the _Vicario Castrense_ (military bishop) attending the occasional ceremony there. The references I find to hospital chaplains are from anticlerical groups which seem to have problems marrying the concept of “full-time chaplain” and “doesn’t have a salary” (they’re usually assigned multiple full-time jobs, such as “hospital chaplain”, “pastor of St John’s” and “coadjutor at The Good Shepherd”, all on one salary from the Diocese); the same people apparently also think cemetery chaplains draw a salary from the cemetery, when they’re just those religious officers who are authorized to officiate there regularly (i.e., the people who have keys). For hospitals and prisons, “full time” means the chaplains can be called at any hours. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/29 "2018-05-02T16:22:19Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Having a House Chaplain does not violate the Establishment Clause. Do you have a court ruling showing otherwise? [Religious Displays and the Courts](http://www.pewforum.org/2007/06/27/religious-displays-and-the-courts/) [Religious Liberty: Landmark Supreme Court Cases](https://billofrightsinstitute.org/cases/) If cities and states can’t establish religion, I fail to see how Congress can. Especially as Congress is directly prohibited in the Constitution from such actions. Just because no one has had the balls to make a fuss doesn’t make it right. There are non-Christian Congresspersons. Why should they do without? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/30 "2018-05-02T16:27:27Z")
It’s hard for me to comprehend why anyone thinks having House and Senate Chaplains is a good idea. I mean that literally. I cannot understand. On the other hand, what a cushy job. You don’t even have to prepare a Sunday sermon. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/31 "2018-05-02T16:31:56Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > I am waiting on the price tag for that giant parade that’s being planned. Seriously? People in Flint, MI need water. Arkansas is full of roads that need work. There’s no excuse for blatant mis-use of funds. don’t forget Puerto Rico is still largely in shambles. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/32 "2018-05-02T18:09:18Z")
I’ve actually heard it seriously argued by more than one person that Puerto Rico should have become a state, then they’d be us and it would be our responsibility to help, but they haven’t, so screw 'em. Literally hundreds of thousands of Puerto Ricans have moved to central Florida alone since the hurricane. And here they can vote. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/33 "2018-05-02T19:15:31Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Why should “tradition” be sufficient reason to keep a dubious practice? > Why? Why should “tradition” go unchallenged? What id “dubious” about it? The Chaplain gives a non-denominational benediction. Most members are Christian, and he can give counseling as requested. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/34 "2018-05-02T19:17:13Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > And that’s a good reason to violate the Constitution? They can’t go to a local place of worship or call their holy man of choice from their home town? How does it “violate the Constitution”? :dubious: You know there are Chaplains in the armed services also. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/35 "2018-05-02T19:35:49Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > [Religious Displays and the Courts](http://www.pewforum.org/2007/06/27/religious-displays-and-the-courts/) > > [Religious Liberty: Landmark Supreme Court Cases](https://billofrightsinstitute.org/cases/) > If cities and states can’t establish religion, I fail to see how Congress can. Especially as Congress is directly prohibited in the Constitution from such actions. > Just because no one has had the balls to make a fuss doesn’t make it right. > There are non-Christian Congresspersons. Why should they do without? The only mention of chaplains in either of those links is Marsh v. Chambers (1983) where the USSC found the Nebraska legislature’s practice of opening its sessions with a prayer by a chaplain paid from public funds was not a violation of the Establishment Clause. So while it’s fair for you like anyone else to have their opinions how the constitution should be interpreted, including overturning old decisions, it doesn’t seem to be just a matter of lack of balls, but a history of rulings that the EC does not mean banishment of references to Christianity or especially generalized monotheistic expressions (often what it actually is) in the public sphere. And, the kind of concept you propose is definitly not what “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion” meant at the time. It meant the new govt should not officially favor one Protestant denomination over others. Catholicism let alone other religions were secondary considerations. The concept of banning reference to God in the public sphere might be a good one (though I can’t gtee I agree personally), but it’s not what they were talking about then, so isn’t supported by simple reference to the text of the 1st amendment. It’s a relatively new concept. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/36 "2018-05-02T20:33:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > How does it “violate the Constitution”? :dubious: > > You know there are Chaplains in the armed services also. Not exclusively Christian. The [wiki article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_chaplain) mentions Jewish, Roman Catholic, Moslem and Buddhist. This is a Christian chaplain, leaving out anyone not of that faith. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/37 "2018-05-02T20:38:49Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > The only mention of chaplains in either of those links is Marsh v. Chambers (1983) where the USSC found the Nebraska legislature’s practice of opening its sessions with a prayer by a chaplain paid from public funds was not a violation of the Establishment Clause. But the concept of government sponsorship of a specific religion has been struck down in a number of cases. The devil is in the details. In this case, the Chaplain is not just opening the session with a prayer, he’s there to act as a religious counselor to the members. If they want an opening prayer, why not people of different faiths do the honors in rotation? That would not favor a single religion or denomination. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/38 "2018-05-02T20:44:38Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Not exclusively Christian. The [wiki article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_chaplain) mentions Jewish, Roman Catholic, Moslem and Buddhist. > This is a Christian chaplain, leaving out anyone not of that faith. It doesnt have to be a Christian Chaplain. They could vote in a Rabbi or etc… But indeed most congresscritters are Christian. Most Military Chaplains are Christian, but since there are many they can cover all faiths. There _was_ a Unitarian chaplain, who technically is Christian. and the Chaplain will minister to those of any faith: > **[CONGRESS; CHAPLINS: ARE THEY CONSTITUTIONAL? (Published 1983)](https://www.nytimes.com/1983/02/14/us/congress-chaplins-are-they-constitutional.html)** There have been Guest Chaplains who were rabbis: [https://seanmaloney.house.gov/media-center/press-releases/maloney-welcomes-mahopac-rabbi-to-congress-as-guest-chaplain](https://seanmaloney.house.gov/media-center/press-releases/maloney-welcomes-mahopac-rabbi-to-congress-as-guest-chaplain) And it is constitutional: > **[Homepage](https://www.freedomforum.org/)** > > The Freedom Forum’s mission is to foster First Amendment freedoms for all. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/39 "2018-05-02T21:42:03Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > But the concept of government sponsorship of a specific religion has been struck down in a number of cases. The devil is in the details. > > In this case, the Chaplain is not just opening the session with a prayer, he’s there to act as a religious counselor to the members. You seem to be ignoring _Marsh v Chambers_ which pertains to government funded chaplains in legislatures. Contrary to your claim, the existence of a chaplain does not violate the Constitution. > **[Marsh v. Chambers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_v._Chambers)** > > Marsh v. Chambers, 463 U.S. 783 (1983), was a landmark court case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that government funding for chaplains was constitutional because of the "unique history" of the United States. Three days before the ratification of the First Amendment in 1791, containing the Establishment clause, the federal legislature authorized hiring a chaplain for opening sessions with prayer. > Nebraska state senator Ernie Chambers sued in federal court claiming that the... ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/40 "2018-05-02T23:13:13Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > You seem to be ignoring _Marsh v Chambers_ which pertains to government funded chaplains in legislatures. Contrary to your claim, the existence of a chaplain does not violate the Constitution. > > [Marsh v. Chambers - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_v._Chambers) Not everyone thinks it’s so clear. > [@](#): > > Justice Brennan, joined by Justice Marshall, wrote in a dissenting opinion, > > ``` > The Court makes no pretense of subjecting Nebraska's practice of legislative prayer to any of the formal "tests" that have traditionally structured our inquiry under the Establishment Clause. That it fails to do so is, in a sense, a good thing, **for it simply confirms that the Court is carving out an exception to the Establishment Clause,** rather than reshaping Establishment Clause doctrine to accommodate legislative prayer. For my purposes, however, I must begin by demonstrating what should be obvious: that, **if the Court were to judge legislative prayer through the unsentimental eye of our settled doctrine, it would have to strike it down as a clear violation of the Establishment Clause.** > > ``` [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448.md?page=3)