# Paul Ryan fired the House Chaplain. Why do we have a House Chaplain? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2018, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448 "2018-05-02T02:27:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/61 "2018-05-03T21:42:07Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Fuck the constitution, theocracy rocks! From the aforementioned Wikipedia page on the House Chaplain: \*Shortly after Congress first convened in April 1789 in New York City, one of its “first orders of business” was to convene a committee to recommend a Chaplain,[23] eventually selecting the Reverend William Linn as the first Chaplain of the United States House of Representatives.[24] \* This would be the same Congress which drafted and passed the First 10 Amendments to the US Constitution which also included the Establishment Clause. So, what you’d have us believe is that the Congress decided to assign a chaplain and then not long after write an Amendment to the Constitution which stated that doing such a practice was against the Constitution. All the while continuing to have a chaplain. Because they thought theocracy rocks and wanted to ‘fuck the constitution’ that they were writing? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/62 "2018-05-03T22:21:55Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/63 "2018-05-03T22:23:08Z")
\*The priest’s defenders have argued that the chaplain can be fired only by a vote of the full House, suggesting his term could last through the end of the year. “You may wish to outright fire me, if you have the authority to do so, but should you wish to terminate my services, it will be without my offer of resignation,” Conroy wrote.\* ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/64 "2018-05-03T22:24:19Z")
Your lack of a decent computer system or phone isn’t my problem, guy. But it is the unresignation letter which stated the reason why Paul Ryan wanted him gone is to get a non-Catholic in the position. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/65 "2018-05-03T22:32:09Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Your lack of a decent computer system or phone isn’t my problem, guy. But it is the unresignation letter which stated the reason why Paul Ryan wanted him gone is to get a non-Catholic in the position. FWIW, the link didn’t work for me the first few times I tried it. It works for me now. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/66 "2018-05-03T22:36:37Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > FWIW, the link didn’t work for me the first few times I tried it. It works for me now. Right. Which is why I changed my post to “nm” once I could read it. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/67 "2018-05-03T22:46:56Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > From the aforementioned Wikipedia page on the House Chaplain: > > \*Shortly after Congress first convened in April 1789 in New York City, one of its “first orders of business” was to convene a committee to recommend a Chaplain,[23] eventually selecting the Reverend William Linn as the first Chaplain of the United States House of Representatives.[24] \* > > This would be the same Congress which drafted and passed the First 10 Amendments to the US Constitution which also included the Establishment Clause. > > So, what you’d have us believe is that the Congress decided to assign a chaplain and then not long after write an Amendment to the Constitution which stated that doing such a practice was against the Constitution. All the while continuing to have a chaplain. Because they thought theocracy rocks and wanted to ‘fuck the constitution’ that they were writing? You’d almost think that modern people aren’t the only people who think that _their_ religion is exempt from the establishment clause. Well, that or the interpretation of the constitution has gradually changed over time such that the establishment clause, one just annoyance over the Church of England, is now interpreted as protecting _atheists_. But that’s crazy talk. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/68 "2018-05-04T02:43:29Z")
He’s coming back. Or, as HuffPo puts it, Ryan dropped the path of priest resistance. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/69 "2018-05-04T05:37:39Z")
It seems that the reason the chaplain was forced to resign by Ryan was that in November when Congress was debating the tax measures, he urged them in his morning prayer “to guarantee that there are not winners and losers under new tax laws, but benefits balanced and shared by all Americans.” No winners or losers? Benefits shared by all Americans? To Paul Ryan that was _blasphemy_! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/70 "2018-05-04T09:15:52Z")
It may be of no great relevance, but it is often said of the chaplain of the Westminster House of Commons that, at the opening of every sitting, he or she looks at the assembled MPs and prays for the country. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/71 "2018-05-04T10:40:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Ravenman** : > > You think, in his heart, he actually thinks Donald Trump is doing a good job when he hands praise to the President? No, I think that… > [@](#): > > Quoth **Johnny Ace** : > > What principles? ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/72 "2018-05-04T12:28:17Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Serious question: > Why is “tradition” apparently not a sufficient reason for you? > > If there is a GOOD reason to change a tradition, then by all means do so. Otherwise, you should think twice before making any changes. We had some other pretty interesting “traditions”, the most heinous of which were justified by the very same religion represented by the chaplain in question, when the constitution was written. We eventually got rid of them, despite the bloofy protestations of some of the more devout Christians in the land. There are zero good reasons for The Land of The Free to conscience any deference at all to religion in general, and organized Christianity in particular; especially in light of the deathgrip the evangelical elements of that particular brand of nuttery has on the brains of a huge chunk of our population. I’m not saying religion is bad, but the embodiments of it which desire to influence politics should be rooted out and crushed. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/73 "2018-05-04T13:03:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I do, in fact, have strong reason to believe that Paul Ryan has never sacrificed his principles for political reasons. “Doing what’s best for Paul Ryan” is not a great principle to live your life by. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/74 "2018-05-04T13:13:33Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > We had some other pretty interesting “traditions”, the most heinous of which were justified by the very same religion represented by the chaplain in question, when the constitution was written. You mean the Catholic chaplain? I doubt Catholics were strong enough to influence the constitution, and were rather the target of rabid anti-Papism themselves, even if that does not rise to the heinousness of the peculiar institution. I have no use for chaplains myself, I just needed to chime in with a “very same religion” nitpick. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/75 "2018-05-04T15:08:55Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > You’d almost think that modern people aren’t the only people who think that _their_ religion is exempt from the establishment clause. > > Well, that or the interpretation of the constitution has gradually changed over time such that the establishment clause, one just annoyance over the Church of England, is now interpreted as protecting _atheists_. But that’s crazy talk. Generally speaking, the interpretation of the Constitution gradually changes due to modern things that the writers couldn’t have foreseen. It would not apply to a Congressional Chaplain, which is not only something they did foresee, but utilize. And regardless of whether or not they believed their religion was exempt from the establishment clause, they indicated that that is how they viewed the establishment clause that they themselves wrote. I don’t think there you can find a clearer cut case of legislative intent. Though, of course, you could be one of those folks who is a textualist (a la Hugo Black or Antonin Scalia), and that’s a perfectly fine way of Constitutional interpretation, but those whose interpretive gloss includes legislative intent aren’t really “fuck the constitution” types. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/76 "2018-05-04T15:28:55Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > “Doing what’s best for Paul Ryan” is not a great principle to live your life by. It is if you’re Paul Ryan. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/77 "2018-05-04T16:21:20Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Generally speaking, the interpretation of the Constitution gradually changes due to modern things that the writers couldn’t have foreseen. It would not apply to a Congressional Chaplain, which is not only something they did foresee, but utilize. And regardless of whether or not they believed their religion was exempt from the establishment clause, they indicated that that is how they viewed the establishment clause that they themselves wrote. > > I don’t think there you can find a clearer cut case of legislative intent. Though, of course, you could be one of those folks who is a textualist (a la Hugo Black or Antonin Scalia), and that’s a perfectly fine way of Constitutional interpretation, but those whose interpretive gloss includes legislative intent aren’t really “fuck the constitution” types. The chaplain hasn’t changed. Our interpretation of the establishment clause has. We didn’t move the goalpost, we moved the field under it. Though it’s pretty clear that by _any_ plain read, the chaplain was at least a mild flouting of the establishment clause from the get-go. I think a fairly plausible and reasonably fair assumption would be that, as the chaplain predated the clause, his position was ‘grandfathered in’ - it didn’t seem like the sort of oppression they were trying to prevent, and didn’t impact or limit the populace at large, so they didn’t worry about it. Seems like a reasonable guess to me, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/78 "2018-05-04T16:36:55Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Though it’s pretty clear that by _any_ plain read, the chaplain was at least a mild flouting of the establishment clause from the get-go. I think a fairly plausible and reasonably fair assumption would be that, as the chaplain predated the clause, his position was ‘grandfathered in’ - it didn’t seem like the sort of oppression they were trying to prevent, and didn’t impact or limit the populace at large, so they didn’t worry about it. Seems like a reasonable guess to me, anyway. This is pretty much exactly what [James Madison said](http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendI_religions64.html): > [@](#): > > Is the appointment of Chaplains to the two Houses of Congress consistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principle of religious freedom? > > In strictness the answer on both points must be in the negative. The Constitution of the U. S. forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion. The law appointing Chaplains establishes a religious worship for the national representatives, to be performed by Ministers of religion, elected by a majority of them; and these are to be paid out of the national taxes. Does not this involve the principle of a national establishment, applicable to a provision for a religious worship for the Constituent as well as of the representative Body, approved by the majority, and conducted by Ministers of religion paid by the entire nation. > > The establishment of the chaplainship to Congs is a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of Constitutional principles: The tenets of the chaplains elected [by the majority] shut the door of worship agst the members whose creeds & consciences forbid a participation in that of the majority. To say nothing of other sects, this is the case with that of Roman Catholics & Quakers who have always had members in one or both of the Legislative branches. Could a Catholic clergyman ever hope to be appointed a Chaplain? To say that his religious principles are obnoxious or that his sect is small, is to lift the evil at once and exhibit in its naked deformity the doctrine that religious truth is to be tested by numbers. or that the major sects have a right to govern the minor. > > If Religion consist in voluntary acts of individuals, singly, or voluntarily associated, and it be proper that public functionaries, as well as their Constituents shd discharge their religious duties, let them like their Constituents, do so at their own expence. How small a contribution from each member of Congs wd suffice for the purpose? How just wd it be in its principle? How noble in its exemplary sacrifice to the genius of the Constitution; and the divine right of conscience? Why should the expence of a religious worship be allowed for the Legislature, be paid by the public, more than that for the Ex. or Judiciary branch of the Govt > > Were the establishment to be tried by its fruits, are not the daily devotions conducted by these legal Ecclesiastics, already degenerating into a scanty attendance, and a tiresome formality? > > Rather than let this step beyond the landmarks of power have the effect of a legitimate precedent, it will be better to apply to it the legal aphorism de minimis non curat lex: or to class it cum “maculis quas aut incuria fudit, aut humana parum cavit natura.” _[De minimis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_minimis) non curat lex:_ “The law does not concern itself with trifles” _[Ubi plura nitent in carmine, non ego paucis offendar,] maculis quas aut incuria fudit, aut humana parum cavit natura:_ “when many beauties appear in a work, I will not cavil at a few faults that proceed either from negligence or from the imperfection of our nature” ([source](https://books.google.com/books?id=rAXHv7KlHxMC&pg=PA327&lpg=PA327&dq=maculis+quas+aut+incuria+fudit,+aut+humana+parum+cavit+natura&source=bl&ots=cB2pNBt0BV&sig=QyGO6pb7FSTaZUXgz8gMI88GFHc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwih3KTZvOzaAhVQwFkKHVFcAdIQ6AEILDAB#v=onepage&q=maculis%20quas%20aut%20incuria%20fudit%2C%20aut%20humana%20parum%20cavit%20natura&f=false)) ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/79 "2018-05-04T17:37:13Z")
To be fair, Madison wrote that in 1817 and the Detached Memoranda is in warning of the precedents that are being established in regards to religion and wanting to nip those precedents in the bud. In the excerpted part claiming chaplaincies are merely trifle and thus should not be precedent setting behavior. Interesting he also makes the case, though I’m not sure if he meant it, that not all rights spelled out in the Bill of Rights are absolute, nor should they be applied strictly. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448/80 "2018-05-04T18:20:41Z")
From the Onion: [House Chaplain Delivers Soulful Prayer For God To Save Weak-Ass, Flip-Flopping Speakers Who Wound Up Looking Like Dipshits In Front Of Everyone](https://politics.theonion.com/house-chaplain-delivers-soulful-prayer-for-god-to-save-1825777693) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-fired-the-house-chaplain-why-do-we-have-a-house-chaplain/813448.md?page=5)