# Paul Ryan steals lunch (story) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 7, 2014, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-steals-lunch-story/683111 "2014-03-07T14:57:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-steals-lunch-story/683111/101 "2014-03-12T20:35:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t know how to do nested quotes, so I put your question in quotes. > > It depends on what he’s trying to say. Is he trying to say “some poor people don’t work hard enough”? If so, then there’s no need to confine the statement to inner cities. > > Is he trying to say “some city poor people don’t work hard enough”? If so, why is he focusing on city poor people, who are disproportionately minorities, while there are plenty of non-city poor people? In fact, the [poverty rate in rural areas](http://www.dailyyonder.com/ruralurban-poverty-gap-narrows/2011/09/19/3526) is and has been for many decades _higher_ than the poverty rate in urban areas. > > Is he contending that, despite the higher poverty rates of rural areas, the urban poor are lazier? Because that’s an utterly ridiculous and evidence-free statement. It’s the kind of statement that is so patently ridiculous that it makes me question the motives of the speaker – either he is extremely ignorant of the nature of poverty in the US, or he is deliberately focusing on “inner city poor” for political reasons. Either choice deserves criticism. I think he’s saying that in the urban setting, generational poverty is more of an issue – specifically, generational poverty associated with specific social indicators, such as contacts with the criminal justice system, absentee parents with substance abuse issues, and a whole host of other social problems that – in my view – are well recognized as being more pervasive in the urban environment. Again, this is not a race issue – I’m talking about the kinds of things that white people in decaying rowhouses around East Pratt and Lombard in Baltimore reliably suffer. I’m talking about social ills that predominate in inner cities. (1) Do you agree that such things exist? (2) What should they be called? (Or is this like the Lord Voldemort of social sciences?) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-steals-lunch-story/683111/102 "2014-03-12T20:40:45Z")
Such things exist _everywhere_. There is no factual basis to single out “the inner city”. The point you’re trying to handwave away is Ryan’s use of a common code word, what it indicates about who he is, and what it indicates about what he thinks about the audience he intends to reach. And I’m pretty sure you know that too. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-steals-lunch-story/683111/103 "2014-03-12T21:28:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > As to “racist code words,” I hope you agree there is a difference between the cities and the suburbs, and that the phrase “inner city,” has a meaning that is not racial. Well, no, because: > [@Bricker](#): > > I hope you can concede that there are specific social issues that arise in the inner cities that do not translate well, or at all, to suburbs or rural areas. That **is** racial. This reinforces it: > [@Bricker](#): > > Again, this is not a race issue – I’m talking about the kinds of things that white people in decaying rowhouses around East Pratt and Lombard in Baltimore reliably suffer. I’m talking about social ills that predominate in inner cities. See? You are not talking about problems that all inner-city residents share, you are talking about problems inner-city whites suffer at the hands of inner-city minorities. I’ve lived in downtown Baltimore, I know exactly what you’re talking about. But: > [@Bricker](#): > > What word or words would you recommend someone use to describe such issues? Words that do not even by implication blame the persons in question for their circumstances. The problem ain’t that they’re lazy. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-steals-lunch-story/683111/104 "2014-03-12T22:23:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK, to be crystal clear, then: you say that raising the minimum wage is so obviously positive, so clearly unambiguously the correct thing to do, that “it’s about as certain as anything having to do with the behavior of human beings can be.” > > Yes? No. I said, “within the general range where minimum wage increases actually happen, it’s about as certain as anything having to do with the behavior of human beings can be.” Take it or leave it, counselor. You don’t get to shave it first. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-steals-lunch-story/683111/105 "2014-03-12T22:34:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why is it that I am able to say that my political opponents are generally good people, but simply armed with very different ideas about the proper role of government? Because your political opponents are not generally evil? I dunno, man. That might have _something_ to do with it. > [@](#): > > The oft-quoted phrase that conservatives think liberals have bad ideas, and liberals think conservatives are bad people, comes to mind. Here’s the thing. The bad ideas of liberals may lead to a cultural collapse way, way down the line. Maybe. If we never change anything. The bad ideas of republicans actively hurt people _now_, and they do so in a condescending, deceitful manner. > [@](#): > > But my objection applies to this kind of thing, as well. Why can’t the criticism of Ryan’s ideas win the day? Why must the adjectives be dialed up to eleven? Because what he’s saying is incredibly offensive to anyone who has been or knows anyone who has been in that situation, and his ideas go on to _hurt those people_. This is not a hard concept to grasp. If you claim that the poor are, by and large, lazy, and that therefore the correct thing to do is to remove the “hammock” of unemployment, you are _wrong_, and your being wrong is _hurting people_. And for a man in Ryan’s position, there is no excuse for being this wrong for this long. > [@](#): > > I post criticisms of liberal politicians here. I don’t use words like that in describing them; I criticize their positions and plans. Name me one democratic or liberal position in the last 20 years which is anywhere near as derogatory, harmful, and flat-out wrong. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-steals-lunch-story/683111/106 "2014-03-12T23:23:34Z")
The talk about teaching a man to fish made me think of a recent episode of the [John Stewart Show](http://www.mediaite.com/tv/stewart-why-the-hell-is-fox-news-so-obsessed-with-poor-people-eating-seafood/) .One _would_ think conservatives would totally be in favor of the government enabling poor people to fish. But nope. No seafood for po’ folks, even if they catch them themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-steals-lunch-story/683111/107 "2014-03-12T23:34:21Z")
Let’s try this again: > [@Lobohan](#): > > Of course Ryan wants to help the lazy aristocrat by lowering his taxes. And helping the companies that make up the aristocrat’s holdings with all sorts of **corporate welfare and relaxed regulation**. > [@Bricker](#): > > The fundamental difference is that lowering taxes and giving money are two different things. The taxes are money taken away – _I’ll help you by not taking as much of your property away_ – as opposed to \*I’ll help you by giving you property that used to belong to other people. Really, I think I’ve offered sufficient clues to the problem. If it’s not… can we add blink tags, just this once? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-steals-lunch-story/683111/108 "2014-03-13T00:18:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, no, because: > > That **is** racial. This reinforces it: > > See? You are not talking about problems that all inner-city residents share, you are talking about problems inner-city whites suffer at the hands of inner-city minorities. I’ve lived in downtown Baltimore, I know exactly what you’re talking about. But: Wrong. Pratt and Lombard, near Patterson Park, is largely white, and those problems are NOT inflicted by minorities. They are self-inflicted. I can cite the racial distribution in that set of blocks if you like. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-steals-lunch-story/683111/109 "2014-03-13T00:24:02Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Because your political opponents are not generally evil? I dunno, man. That might have _something_ to do with it. > > Here’s the thing. The bad ideas of liberals may lead to a cultural collapse way, way down the line. Maybe. If we never change anything. The bad ideas of republicans actively hurt people _now_, and they do so in a condescending, deceitful manner. > > Because what he’s saying is incredibly offensive to anyone who has been or knows anyone who has been in that situation, and his ideas go on to _hurt those people_. This is not a hard concept to grasp. If you claim that the poor are, by and large, lazy, and that therefore the correct thing to do is to remove the “hammock” of unemployment, you are _wrong_, and your being wrong is _hurting people_. And for a man in Ryan’s position, there is no excuse for being this wrong for this long. > > Name me one democratic or liberal position in the last 20 years which is anywhere near as derogatory, harmful, and flat-out wrong. I believe abortion fits that bill. I believe it’s flat-out wrong. I’d also argue that opposition to nuclear power and genetically modified food is flat-out wrong. But I’m certain that you don’t agree. But that’s the point: you’re asserting the unarguable truth of your positions, even though they are not objectively provable. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-steals-lunch-story/683111/110 "2014-03-13T00:29:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > (1) Do you agree that such things exist? > (2) What should they be called? (Or is this like the Lord Voldemort of social sciences?) Ahh, I see the problem. It’s not really that he used the term “inner city poor”. No one would complain if he said “the inner city poor are great people and the salt of the earth”. It’s that he essentially said “inner city poor people are lazy”. Considering the pervasive racist stereotype that black people are lazy, and considering the history of Republicans using the phrase “inner city” to mean “black”, I’m sure you can see why he’s being criticized. Either he is ignorant of that stereotype and the use of that phrase, or he’s aware of it and used it anyway. Either possibility should earn him criticism – wouldn’t you agree? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-steals-lunch-story/683111/111 "2014-03-13T01:02:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Ahh, I see the problem. It’s not really that he used the term “inner city poor”. No one would complain if he said “the inner city poor are great people and the salt of the earth”. It’s that he essentially said “inner city poor people are lazy”. Considering the pervasive racist stereotype that black people are lazy, and considering the history of Republicans using the phrase “inner city” to mean “black”, I’m sure you can see why he’s being criticized. Either he is ignorant of that stereotype and the use of that phrase, or he’s aware of it and used it anyway. Either possibility should earn him criticism – wouldn’t you agree? Except that he did not use the phrase. Your objection is to his implication of a phrase, which in turn is supposed to represent a _real phrase_, which in turn is supposed to evoke a stereotype. Or maybe I missed it. What phrase specifically do you object to? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-steals-lunch-story/683111/112 "2014-03-13T01:12:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Wrong. Pratt and Lombard, near Patterson Park, is largely white, and those problems are NOT inflicted by minorities. They are self-inflicted. > > I can cite the racial distribution in that set of blocks if you like. Good to know, but, like I said: > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Words that do not even by implication blame the persons in question for their circumstances. The problem ain’t that they’re lazy. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-steals-lunch-story/683111/113 "2014-03-13T06:29:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I believe abortion fits that bill. I believe it’s flat-out wrong. Terrible comparison. Abortion is not clearly ethically wrong in the same way; it’s a far more subjective belief. > [@](#): > > I’d also argue that opposition to nuclear power and genetically modified food is flat-out wrong. Eh, okay, this one I’ll give you. > [@](#): > > But that’s the point: you’re asserting the unarguable truth of your positions, even though they are not objectively provable. I’d consider it a matter of basic ethics. Ryan’s position is wrong and hurting people, and he has no excuse not to know better. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-steals-lunch-story/683111/114 "2014-03-13T09:05:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Except that he did not use the phrase. Your objection is to his implication of a phrase, which in turn is supposed to represent a _real phrase_, which in turn is supposed to evoke a stereotype. > > Or maybe I missed it. What phrase specifically do you object to? He said “We have got this tailspin of culture, in our inner cities in particular, of men not working and just generations of men not even thinking about working or learning the value and the culture of work,” He is saying that inner city people are lazy and don’t know the value of work (due to “culture”, I suppose). That’s perpetuating a really ugly stereotype about black people, even if that’s not what he intends. I think he probably knows better, because he must be aware of the history of his party referring to black people as “inner city” people, and he must be aware of the racist stereotype of black people are lazy. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-steals-lunch-story/683111/115 "2014-03-13T15:17:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > He said “We have got this tailspin of culture, in our inner cities in particular, of men not working and just generations of men not even thinking about working or learning the value and the culture of work,” > > He is saying that inner city people are lazy and don’t know the value of work (due to “culture”, I suppose). That’s perpetuating a really ugly stereotype about black people, even if that’s not what he intends. > > I think he probably knows better, because he must be aware of the history of his party referring to black people as “inner city” people, and he must be aware of the racist stereotype of black people are lazy. OK, I agree. Regardless of the technical defenses he might offer to the statement, there is a historical implication there that touches a stereotype and should be avoided. But I think there are plenty of people – Ryan perhaps among them – who believe that avoiding something accurate because of the possible racial misinterpretation is itself a form of racism. That is, in a truly color-blind, post-racial society, we simply don’t acknowledge the power of past stereotypes, because we’re past that. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-steals-lunch-story/683111/116 "2014-03-13T15:18:05Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I’d consider it a matter of basic ethics. Ryan’s position is wrong and hurting people, and he has no excuse not to know better. No. I argue Ryan’s position will help more people than it hurts, in the long run. _That’s_ a matter of basic ethics. So how can either of us assert “basic ethics” when we don’t share a fundamental agreement on the underlying truths, and agree that neither one of us is asserting something objectively provable? (Assuming we do?) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-steals-lunch-story/683111/117 "2014-03-13T15:19:27Z")
Except it _isn’t_ accurate to pick out the “inner cities” when lamenting people too lazy to work. And we are \*not \*fucking past racism in our society, as Ryan’s statement fucking well _shows_. ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-steals-lunch-story/683111/118 "2014-03-13T15:37:15Z")
I wonder if Paul Ryan is aware of [Lee Atwater’s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Atwater#Atwater_on_the_Southern_Strategy) famous statements on the subject of racial politics? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-steals-lunch-story/683111/119 "2014-03-13T15:38:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That is, in a truly color-blind, post-racial society, we simply don’t acknowledge the power of past stereotypes, because we’re past that. If Ryan thinks we’re in such a society, then that’s a mark against his understanding of reality. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-steals-lunch-story/683111/120 "2014-03-13T15:44:35Z")
While denying he had meant anything racial, [Ryan went on:](http://www.crewof42.com/news/paul-ryan-inner-city-comments-had-nothing-to-do-whatsoever-with-race/) > [@](#): > > “This isn’t a race based comment it’s a breakdown of families, it’s rural poverty in rural areas, and talking about where poverty exists — there are no jobs and we have a breakdown of the family. This has nothing to do with race,” See? Problems in the inner city are because the people there are lazy and shiftless, but problems in rural areas are because of lack of jobs. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-steals-lunch-story/683111.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-ryan-steals-lunch-story/683111.md?page=7)