# Paul Verhoeven can kiss Robert Heinlein's entire ass **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 12, 2003, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733 "2003-11-12T01:29:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/1 "2003-11-12T01:29:53Z")
[Knock yourselves out.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=222557) ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/2 "2003-11-12T01:31:10Z")
You don’t take disagreement well, do you? ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/3 "2003-11-12T01:46:36Z")
The Swedish Bikini Team scores you a 1 out of 10 for style. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/4 "2003-11-12T02:28:19Z")
Well, **lissener** , as usual you’re making an ass out of yourself by throwing a tantrum that anyone would dare try and open a debate with you on a message board dedicated to open debate. In the linked thread, you asked: > [@](#): > > Seriously: Rik, Miller, et al.: are you saying that we have to form a secret club, and get a hidden web address, before those of us who want to can have this conversation in peace? No, I just don’t see the point of starting a debate on a public message board if you don’t want to hear differing points of view. Maybe I’m crazy, but I thought the entire point of offering a critical analysis of a work of art was to test its soundness by inviting people to try to knock holes in it. It seems you just wanted people to post if they were going to give you a big, sloppy blow-job. Maybe you should have made that clearer in your OP, since I was operating under the assumption that you had some sort of intellectual curiosity or inquisitiveness. Clearly, I was wrong. I will keep this in mind when I see threads from you in the future, and avoid them accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Aslan\_of\_Narnia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@Aslan\_of\_Narnia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aslan_of_Narnia)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/5 "2003-11-12T02:44:07Z")
I can tell this thread will go well, 100% in favor of lissener. lissener, I did not think a thread could make me weep from the wit, intelligence, and dogged fact finding, but you sir, you proved me wrong! ---
**Author:** ![fruitbat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58f4c7/32.png) [@fruitbat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fruitbat)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/6 "2003-11-12T02:51:04Z")
I do believe I will also be re-evaluating my participation in **lissener** threads. I may disagree with you in some areas, but dammit I like Starship Troopers. I was getting ready to post to the thread with my own interpretation. I just don’t feel like being treated like a steaming lump of dung in Cafe Society. You owe **Miller** et al. an apology for this utterly stupid thread. People will disagree with you, it’s what we do around here. You need to learn to live with it. You really are staking out that prime piece of whiny pissant territory aren’t you? You aren’t going to get points just because this isn’t a stupid thread about homophobes. A stupid thread remains stupid no matter the subject area. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/7 "2003-11-12T02:54:21Z")
[\*\*Verhoeven Reconsidered (Unless of course you disagree with me, in which case piss off)](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=222557)\*\* Yes, only happy talk allowed there. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/8 "2003-11-12T02:56:20Z")
I went through and read that whole thread. I’m glad I did. There’s good stuff in there. While **lissener** is going about it pretty petulantly, the basic idea is there. When **lissener** , **Cervaise** and others make pages-long analyses and critiques that are very well thought-out and sensible, people coming in and dumping on the thread with ‘say all you want, he’s a no-talent hack’ and ‘shit is shit, and I know shit when I see it’ contribute next to nothing to the discussion. Refute their claims if you can, but to think that ‘I hated the movie, and Verhoeven sucks’ is a valid refutation is patently stupid. It’s reasonable to want to ask that those who can’t say anything intelligent just move on. **lissener** may be stomping his feet and getting ready to throw a tantrum, but he’s got a point. Of course, telling people to stop posting will never get you anything but jeers, but is it so hard to come up with a little more substance? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/9 "2003-11-12T02:56:48Z")
The thread was about Verhoeven; it continued to be hijacked to be about Heinlein. The hijacks were rude and combative, in a nice quiet little Cafe Society thread. I was giving the hecklers a place to take their hijack, so they wouldn’t continue it in the other thread. Just out of curiosity, who’s treating who like a steaming lump of dung? the hecklers, or the people who are asking the hecklers to please take it outside? serious question; the only scatalogical remarks in that thread have come from the Heinlein defenders. ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/10 "2003-11-12T02:57:14Z")
I was ready to respond to that thread, since I actually liked the absurdity of _Showgirls_ but didn’t agree with the assessment that Verhoeven is some misunderstood genius. That is, until I saw it was from **lissener**. There’s really no way to discuss anything with him - his mind is already made up before he posts a single word. Take my above opinion - it would be met with “It’s too bad you fail to understand that he is a misunderstood genius - I guess I don’t care really that you’re missing out on this insight” or words to that effect (probably meaner). I think **blackclaw** said it best in that thread: > [@](#): > > Why open a thread called “Vehoeven Reconsidered” when you yourself are not willing to reconsider your point of view about him? I don’t think it’s me that is in the wrong thread. You are obviously not really interested in a dialogue at all. Start a “Verhoeven Fans post here!” thread and I will steer clear. ---
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/11 "2003-11-12T03:06:12Z")
I’ll say it again here - Am I getting whooshed? No one actually thought Showgirls was a good film, did they? :eek: Holy fuck! ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/12 "2003-11-12T03:09:42Z")
And Dooku, I have one topic no one here has been able to sway me on: homophobia. One topic. I open one thread to discuss a controversial writer and bristle at getting drowned out by hecklers with nothing to add. How is this “really no way to discuss anything with” me? Why don’t you search my posts before you make such blanket statements. And thanks for making up a fictional response that you THINK I’d have to your opinion; certainly a good way to have something to object to. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/13 "2003-11-12T03:14:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diane \* > \*\*I’ll say it again here - > > Am I getting whooshed? No one actually thought Showgirls was a good film, did they? :eek: > > Holy fuck! \*\* Diane, did you read Cervaise’s carefully written critique of it? ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/14 "2003-11-12T03:34:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*\*The thread was about Verhoeven; it continued to be hijacked to be about Heinlein. The hijacks were rude and combative, in a nice quiet little Cafe Society thread. I was giving the hecklers a place to take their hijack, so they wouldn’t continue it in the other thread. > > Just out of curiosity, who’s treating who like a steaming lump of dung? the hecklers, or the people who are asking the hecklers to please take it outside? serious question; the only scatalogical remarks in that thread have come from the Heinlein defenders. \*\* What we have here is someone adapts a classic science fiction novel (Hugo award winner) and in the process distorts (almost to the point on not being recognizable) the work of a grand master. [cite](http://www.nitrosyncretic.com/rah/rahfaq.html) Then a “discussion” is started about the adaptor. Is it surprising that people who loved the original stop by to say “Oh by the way this guy screwed up a really great story”? Why does this surprise you? :wally It’s along the same lines as if Macbeth got turned into a slasher movie. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/15 "2003-11-12T03:47:12Z")
note to the reading comprehension challenged. I said **ALONG THE SAME LINES** I did not say they were exactally the same thing ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/16 "2003-11-12T04:07:55Z")
The movie comparision that comes to mind is “The Scarlet Letter”. The movie starring Demi Moore rewrites the story into a triumph of forbidden love with Hester Prynne the protofeminist riding off into the sunset with her adulterous paramour. Yeesh. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/17 "2003-11-12T04:09:49Z")
**lissener** , you a dishonest, spineless, whining little film snob, you’re so full of shit you could grow a wheat crop on your scalp. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by lissener_ > The thread was about Verhoeven; it continued to be hijacked to be about Heinlein. Bullshit. You named me specifically when you started this thread: Go back and look at my posts in the other thread, and find one place where I mentioned the name “Robert Heinlein.” I don’t criticize movies based on their fidelity to their source: I criticize movies on their own merits. _Starship Troopers_ doesn’t have any merits, and I don’t need to bring up the novel to prove that. > [@](#): > > The hijacks were rude and combative, in a nice quiet little Cafe Society thread. Rude and combative? Would that be something like saying, “So it’s possible that if you watched his films with some effort and attention, you’d see what’s there too.” That was your response to **Wumpus** , who was the first poster in that thread who wouldn’t bend his knee to the altar of **Lissener** ’s Film Theory. And unlike you, he was able to disagree without insulting the people he disagreed with. > [@](#): > > I was giving the hecklers a place to take their hijack, so they wouldn’t continue it in the other thread. Hijack? Disagreeing with the OP isn’t a hijack, you imbecile. But ignoring dissent to whine about how everyone’s being such meanies by not falling into lockstep with the OP just might count as one. > [@](#): > > \*Just out of curiosity, who’s treating who like a steaming lump of dung? the hecklers, or the people who are asking the hecklers to please take it outside? serious question; the only scatalogical remarks in that thread have come from the Heinlein defenders. “People”? Refering to ourselves in the plural now, are we? I suppose it’s appropriate: you are quite the drama queen. ---
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/18 "2003-11-12T05:07:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*\*Diane, did you read Cervaise’s carefully written critique of it? \*\* Yeah I did. It still blows me away that anyone could think of that movie as anything more than a big of shit. With corn. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/19 "2003-11-12T05:14:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > **lissener** , you a dishonest, spineless, whining little film snob, you’re so full of shit you could grow a wheat crop on your scalp. Mushrooms. It’s mushrooms that grow in shit. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/20 "2003-11-12T05:17:28Z")
Well, shit is an all-purpose fertilizer. But mushrooms would have been funnier. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733.md?page=2)