# Paul Verhoeven can kiss Robert Heinlein's entire ass **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 12, 2003, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733 "2003-11-12T01:29:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/21 "2003-11-12T05:23:09Z")
Ya know, I was almost at the point where I thought that maybe **lissener** had some kind of semi-legitimate point about _Showgirls_ being a work of unrecognized genius. Then he went and proved himself to be a complete retard and/or insane person by opening this Pit thread, and I realized that no, some people really are that stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Eternal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@Eternal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eternal)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/22 "2003-11-12T08:34:30Z")
If it makes you all feel better, this thread has convinced me you’re all a bunch of bitter petty children. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/23 "2003-11-12T12:20:40Z")
This is kind of interesting. Verhoven’s movies are kind of like pictures in the clouds. You can claim that they are heartbreaking works of staggering genius™, but you end up demonstrating your ability to pull great points out of dreck and your inability to see dreck for dreck. ---
**Author:** ![Blackclaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@Blackclaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackclaw)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/24 "2003-11-12T13:10:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > **And Dooku, I have one topic no one here has been able to sway me on: homophobia. One topic.** And Verhoven apparently. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \*\*\* > > I open one thread to discuss a controversial writer and bristle at getting drowned out by hecklers with nothing to add…\*\* You are still not quite grasping the obvious here. If, by your own admission, Verhoven is controversial than why are surprised when controversy entered the thread? I stated my opinion, that Verhoven’s use of Robert Heinlein’s work as a vehicle for his satire was dishonest. You made no attempt to sway me from my opinion. You response was a plea for me to get out of your thread. What kind of “discussion” is that? I am not closed minded on this subject. The propaganda clips in Starship Troopers - hilarious, really. But I felt like I had been tricked into seeing something that I had not paid to see. If the movie had been a bit more honest about what it was, it would probably be in my DVD collection. The thing about art is that, rather obviously, it is in the eye of the beholder. Just because one person sees something and declares it a work of beauty and another looks at it and declares it frog poop does not mean that either person is in error. You should not take it as a direct personal affront when someone has a different opinion than you. If your opinion is so dear to you that anyone challenging it requires the opening of a pit thread, than maybe you should realise you aren’t really willing to discuss it. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/25 "2003-11-12T13:59:10Z")
You fuckers. It’s **Verhoeven** , dammit. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/26 "2003-11-12T14:05:21Z")
Wait until you guys get to tear apart [Starship Troopers 2: Hero of the Federation](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0367093/). ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/27 "2003-11-12T14:16:04Z")
It seems to me **lissener** so vehemently supports Verhoeven because he identifies with him. Verhoeven’s work looks like it’s supposed to appeal to the mainstream, but actually parodies it, and ultimately gets rejected because nobody can understand the underlying satire. In striving to be the number one contender for the SDMB Drama Queen, **lissener** parades down the street like a glitter ‘n’ glitz drag queen, singing broadway tunes at the top of his voice. When the crowd tells him to shut up, he procedes to castigate society for rejecting his lifestyle when he so obviously is portraying America’s #1 Icon, Marylin Monroe. Why doesn’t the mainstream see that his wearing the platinum blonde wig and strapping into a halter to give himself cleavage is indeed a piquant homage to Norma Jean? Moreover, why don’t they understand he’s actually _satirizing_ the public’s unquestioning adoration for Hollywood standards? When are the shells going to drop from the ignorant public’s eyes? But no, instead people try to tell him that being a flamboyant asshole isn’t supporting his cause, and he won’t lissen to them. I think even if everybody who responded to **lissener** ’s OPs did so in total agreement, he’d call them sheep and tell them to grow backbones. Just can’t satisfy some people. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/28 "2003-11-12T14:20:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SkipMagic \* > \*\*Wait until you guys get to tear apart [Starship Troopers 2: Hero of the Federation](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0367093/). \*\* :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/29 "2003-11-12T14:33:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > **And Dooku, I have one topic no one here has been able to sway me on: homophobia. One topic.** And gun control, and Verhoeven, and just about any other opinion you pollute a thread with. You are rude, abrasive, belligerent and abusive when someone has the “audacity” to disagree with you on some subject. Almost without fail. In short, you’re a boor. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/30 "2003-11-12T14:36:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > \*\*In short, you’re a boor. \*\* Hey, don’t taint Dutch farmers that way… What? Oh, a _boor._ Not a boer. ---
**Author:** ![Mac\_Guffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mac\_Guffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mac_Guffin)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/31 "2003-11-12T14:36:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SkipMagic \* > \*\*Wait until you guys get to tear apart [Starship Troopers 2: Hero of the Federation](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0367093/). \*\* WHAT THE SHIT?!? Wasn’t pissing on Heinlein’s legacy ONCE enough? Damnit, why don’t I own any guns? ---
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/32 "2003-11-12T14:45:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*\*Diane, did you read Cervaise’s carefully written critique of it? \*\* Uh, yeeeeeeeeeeeeah I did. I still think the movie is a heaping pile of crap and I am still having a hard time wrapping my brain around the fact that someone actually liked it! Just a little advice - don’t write someone on a message board if your skin isn’t thick enough to cope with those who don’t agree with you. It makes you look like a whining baby. Really. ---
**Author:** ![ElwoodCuse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/edb3f5/32.png) [@ElwoodCuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElwoodCuse)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/33 "2003-11-12T15:19:40Z")
Hey before you guys have a fit about ST2, PV has absolutely nothing to do with it. Check the credits. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/34 "2003-11-12T15:26:10Z")
Which means that despite the fact that it’s a low-budget, straight-to-video spinoff of a crappy movie, it can only get better. ---
**Author:** ![Doomtrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Doomtrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doomtrain)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/35 "2003-11-12T16:24:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \* > \*\*Which means that despite the fact that it’s a low-budget, straight-to-video spinoff of a crappy movie, it can only get better. \*\* The posters on that message board say the budget is $6 million. That should make things interesting. The bugs’ll be those plastic spiders from cheap Halloween candy. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/36 "2003-11-12T16:49:14Z")
1. _Starship Troopers_ the movie was mediocre IMO. A failed satire, too full of itself to be worthwhile. 2. _Starship Troopers_ the book was a steaming load of excrement, one of the poorest-written novels I’ve ever had the displeasure of wading through. Paper-thin characters acting as mouthpieces for RAH’s absurd philosophies, terribly-written battle scenes, a hackneyed plot even by contemporary standards; all in all, it was incredibly stupid and sloppy. The movie only improved on the book by abandoning it. 3. Deep breaths, **lissener**. 4. **Knowed Out** , nice little depiction of **lissener** as a contemptible gay stereotype. Just as he shoots his cause in the foot by being abrasive, you shoot criticism of him in the foot by such a display. Criticize him for his behavior, sure; but leave drag queens out of it unless you have a reason to do otherwise. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Mac\_Guffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mac\_Guffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mac_Guffin)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/37 "2003-11-12T16:52:35Z")
> [@](#): > > The posters on that message board say the budget is $6 million. That should make things interesting. The bugs’ll be those plastic spiders from cheap Halloween candy. That or the entirety of the “special effects” will be done on someones home PC using Windows Paint. Ugh. Oh, and veerhoovin’s an ass.[sub] (Note. Directors name intentionaly misspelled.) [/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/38 "2003-11-12T17:16:47Z")
Actually, the director owns a special effects company, so I’m not so sure the effects will be that bad. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/39 "2003-11-12T17:21:49Z")
And this, folks, is why i don’t participate in any movie thread that **lissener** defiles with his slime. Let him form his own website to discuss movies with other people that only agree 100% with what he says and leave us poor unwashed movie lovers in peace. ---
**Author:** ![fruitbat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58f4c7/32.png) [@fruitbat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fruitbat)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733/40 "2003-11-12T17:27:36Z")
I actually thought **lissener** and **Cervaise** did a good job vocalizing the argument for Verhoeven’s twisted genius. I would quibble with some minor points, but as a whole I was with him. My opinion that you made a good argument does not excuse this pissy behavior in the least. If you present a controversial argument in Cafe Society you must be prepared for disagreement. Those who disagreed were polite and did not attack anyone personally. Your choices as far as a potential response are as follows: 1. Ignore the comments and continue addressing the posters whose arguments you find to have merits. 2. Argue your case to those who disagree with you. 3. Start a Pit thread bitching about those who dare disagree with you. Trust me when I say you chose the worst of the three alternatives. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paul-verhoeven-can-kiss-robert-heinleins-entire-ass/212733.md?page=3)