# Paving Paradise to Put Up a Golf Course **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 10, 2011, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paving-paradise-to-put-up-a-golf-course/574219 "2011-03-10T20:25:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paving-paradise-to-put-up-a-golf-course/574219/41 "2011-03-14T00:19:48Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > (Which, BTW, is generally nothing because Florida is built on a drained swamp and whatever “nature” is in the state consists of mosquitoes, alligators and pythons.) Who needs nature? Just pave the entire state of Wisconsin while we’re at it. Speaking of mosquitoes, y’know? For Pete’s sake, I thought the battle over leaving _some_ natural land laying around handy (and convenient to the shops) had been fought and won. I was obviously wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paving-paradise-to-put-up-a-golf-course/574219/42 "2011-03-14T01:02:11Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Of course. Subsidized youth golf is certainly more important than subsidized youth health, nutrition, and education. I, for one, am glad to see that Florida has its hat screwed on right. It isn’t subsidized by anyone if it’s profitable. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paving-paradise-to-put-up-a-golf-course/574219/43 "2011-03-14T01:11:58Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > It isn’t subsidized by anyone if it’s profitable. It would be profitable (if it was) because the large amounts of land they would use to do it would be “free”. Try buying a couple hundred acres and then see how much your green fees will need to be just to cover the loan, much less the additional cost to make the course, the facilities, maintain them, and pay for employees. So, you would be taking “free” land thats supposed to be left in its mostly natural state (which is the whole idea of the parks, preserving that which is to the point of being rare in Florida) and turning it into “free” land thats no longer remotely natural. Land that you can find in that condition in 1500 other golf course in the state of Florida. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paving-paradise-to-put-up-a-golf-course/574219/44 "2011-03-14T01:15:12Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > It isn’t subsidized by anyone if it’s profitable. Taxpayers are paying to build the golf courses. Will your run-of-the-mill taxpayer be able to afford to play on a Jack Nicklaus designed golf course? Will youth golfers be able to afford it? Is there anything in the bill limiting the cost for (for example) residents of the community? Will the golf courses be profitable without the private industry hotels? How much income will the state derive from the golf course and the hotels? ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paving-paradise-to-put-up-a-golf-course/574219/45 "2011-03-14T01:19:17Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Taxpayers are paying to build the golf courses. Will your run-of-the-mill taxpayer be able to afford to play on a Jack Nicklaus designed golf course? Will youth golfers be able to afford it? Is there anything in the bill limiting the cost for (for example) residents of the community? Will the golf courses be profitable without the private industry hotels? How much income will the state derive from the golf course and the hotels? Maybe you should have looked into those questions before you claimed that the golf courses would be subsidized. Admitting your ignorance up front is sometimes pretty tough, though. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paving-paradise-to-put-up-a-golf-course/574219/46 "2011-03-14T01:20:42Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > It would be profitable (if it was) because the large amounts of land they would use to do it would be “free”. > > Try buying a couple hundred acres and then see how much your green fees will need to be just to cover the loan, much less the additional cost to make the course, the facilities, maintain them, and pay for employees. > > . Nonsense. The state already owns the land, and will be the ones to reap any profits that will be made on the project. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paving-paradise-to-put-up-a-golf-course/574219/47 "2011-03-14T01:24:52Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Nonsense. The state already owns the land, and will be the ones to reap any profits that will be made on the project. Just fell off the turnip truck, I see. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paving-paradise-to-put-up-a-golf-course/574219/48 "2011-03-14T01:25:30Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Just fell off the turnip truck, I see. What a stupid thing to say. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paving-paradise-to-put-up-a-golf-course/574219/49 "2011-03-14T01:28:12Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > What a stupid thing to say. Not familiar with the history of the State of Florida, I see. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paving-paradise-to-put-up-a-golf-course/574219/50 "2011-03-14T01:29:29Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Not familiar with the history of the State of Florida, I see. Why? Are you claiming that no project undertaken in the state of Florida has been profitable? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paving-paradise-to-put-up-a-golf-course/574219/51 "2011-03-14T01:40:28Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Why? Are you claiming that no project undertaken in the state of Florida has been profitable? For the state? Or for businesses – ahem – closely associated with politicians? ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paving-paradise-to-put-up-a-golf-course/574219/52 "2011-03-14T01:49:08Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > For the state? Or for businesses – ahem – closely associated with politicians? Any project has contractors who will make money, and the bidding process is often shady. That doesn’t mean that the state isn’t going to make some money after their expenses are paid. If folks want to complain about the way the state of Florida conducts business, then I’m not going to get upset. Most of the ire in this thread, however, seems to be directed toward golfers and golf courses in general. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paving-paradise-to-put-up-a-golf-course/574219/53 "2011-03-14T01:54:51Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Nonsense. The state already owns the land, and will be the ones to reap any profits that will be made on the project. Guess that complicated word “free” in my post kinda threw you for a mental loop. Sorry about that. And they could put up Walmarts or go cart tracks or apartments or strip joints or god knows what on state park land and probably turn a profit as well. Thats not the point. The point is, why take a rare thing, land in its natural state, and turn it into common crap that can be found throughout the state to provide a service that private enterprise seems quite capable of providing to the public in 1500 locations. One could also point out that State run golf course would be competing with private ones, taking away their business. And competing unfairly because their land was free and they don’t have to pay property tax on it (and probably some other advantages that escape me at the moment that they would have over private courses). ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paving-paradise-to-put-up-a-golf-course/574219/54 "2011-03-14T01:55:51Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > If folks want to complain about the way the state of Florida conducts business, then I’m not going to get upset. Most of the ire in this thread, however, seems to be directed toward golfers and golf courses in general. Of course it is. Golfers are jerks. I’ve seen Cady Shack. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paving-paradise-to-put-up-a-golf-course/574219/55 "2011-03-14T02:05:49Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Guess that complicated word “free” in my post kinda threw you for a mental loop. Sorry about that. > > And they could put up Walmarts or go cart tracks or apartments or strip joints or god knows what on state park land and probably turn a profit as well. > > Thats not the point. The point is, why take a rare thing, land in its natural state, and turn it into common crap that can be found throughout the state to provide a service that private enterprise seems quite capable of providing to the public in 1500 locations. > > One could also point out that State run golf course would be competing with private ones, taking away their business. And competing unfairly because their land was free and they don’t have to pay property tax on it (and probably some other advantages that escape me at the moment that they would have over private courses). Are we even talking about land in its natural state? Also, why are you acting like this is the first time the state has competed with private enterprise? Do you think it shouldn’t be allowed to do so? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paving-paradise-to-put-up-a-golf-course/574219/56 "2011-03-14T02:17:15Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Are we even talking about land in its natural state? Maybe you should have looked into that question. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paving-paradise-to-put-up-a-golf-course/574219/57 "2011-03-14T02:20:01Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Are we even talking about land in its natural state? Jesus you are dense. Natural state is kinda the fucking point of a State Park. BTW whats your handicap? ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paving-paradise-to-put-up-a-golf-course/574219/58 "2011-03-14T02:21:16Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Maybe you should have looked into that question. Why? I didn’t make any claims about the state of the land, dumbass. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paving-paradise-to-put-up-a-golf-course/574219/59 "2011-03-14T02:24:37Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Jesus you are dense. > > Natural state is kinda the fucking point of a State Park. > > BTW whats your handicap? Are you sure that’s the fucking point? I don’t honestly know if that’s the case. I haven’t played golf much in the past 20 years, and I sucked as a kid. Handicap would be quite high. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paving-paradise-to-put-up-a-golf-course/574219/60 "2011-03-14T16:52:20Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Does Florida have some lack of golf courses that must be addressed by government action rather than the miracle of private enterprise? We have 1,481 in Florida, with six more scheduled to open this year. That’s about one for every 12,500 residents. Yes, you read that right. We each have to share our courses with 12,499 other people. It’s practically impossible to get a tee time. And that number includes a couple dozen private courses, so we might all really be sharing our greens with 15,000 people. Lack of golf facilities is undoubtedly the biggest problem facing Florida today. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paving-paradise-to-put-up-a-golf-course/574219.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paving-paradise-to-put-up-a-golf-course/574219.md?page=4)