# Pay equity for women **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2008, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-equity-for-women/467348 "2008-10-10T17:21:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-equity-for-women/467348/1 "2008-10-10T17:21:12Z")
Interestingly enough, I found this as a banner ad here. [http://www.johnmccain.com/involving/petition3.aspx?guid=855a55ae-6e50-4877-98e6-7e35761c1f26&s=google&t=equalpay&r=obama](http://www.johnmccain.com/involving/petition3.aspx?guid=855a55ae-6e50-4877-98e6-7e35761c1f26&s=google&t=equalpay&r=obama) Comparing Obama’s and McCain’s legislative staffs, Obama pays the women of his staff $.83 for every dollar a male would make. McCain, by contrast pays the women on his staff $1.04 for every dollar a man makes. One reason for this is that McCain has more women in the higher salary positions. 13 of the top 20 are women, as opposed to Obama who has only 7 women in the top positions. The numbers original come from a website here: [www.legistorm.com](http://www.legistorm.com) What do you guys think? What is more important to Woman’s rights? Championing the cause publicly or quietly doing? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-equity-for-women/467348/2 "2008-10-10T17:35:42Z")
The only comparison that matters is how much each of them pays for doing the same job. Comparing the average salary of males to females throughout their whole organization is ridiculous when McCain has more women in higher salary positions. He’s not “quietly doing” a damn thing. ---
**Author:** ![Thrash\_the\_Almighty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/90ced4/32.png) [@Thrash\_the\_Almighty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thrash_the_Almighty)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-equity-for-women/467348/3 "2008-10-10T17:37:38Z")
Doesn’t seem like a big deal to me. I see no evidence that either man is a sexist or is treating women unfairly. Both have hired women to fill key slots in their campaign. Unless there is evidence otherwise, I assume both men hire based on individual merit not gender. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-equity-for-women/467348/4 "2008-10-10T17:51:45Z")
**DigitalC** is correct. You can’t compare salaries for different jobs, it doesn’t make any sense. Now I suppose you could argue that Obama is sexist for not hiring as many women to high level positions, but an overall pay comparison is not evidence of that. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-equity-for-women/467348/5 "2008-10-10T17:59:10Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > The only comparison that matters is how much each of them pays for doing the same job. Would you give the same credit to a corporation that only had men in the upper management and officer positions? That’s what the glass ceiling is. A large part of the pay discrepancy in the real world that Obama decries on his website isn’t that a female janitor gets paid less than her male counterpart. It’s that upper level, higher salary positions aren’t available for women. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-equity-for-women/467348/6 "2008-10-10T17:59:58Z")
Equality of opportunity doesn’t mean equality of result. If women serving McCain have negotiated themselves better deals than those serving Obama, then good for them. ---
**Author:** ![Phatlewt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a698b9/32.png) [@Phatlewt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phatlewt)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-equity-for-women/467348/7 "2008-10-10T19:18:59Z")
If McCain was serious about pay equity, he could have supported legislation to that effect, such as the [Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/24/washington/24cong.html), which McCain opposed. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-equity-for-women/467348/8 "2008-10-10T20:14:51Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > Would you give the same credit to a corporation that only had men in the upper management and officer positions? How is that relevant here? Obama’s Senate office **doesn’t** “only have men” in the high-level positions. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-equity-for-women/467348/9 "2008-10-10T20:28:57Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > …That’s what the glass ceiling is. A large part of the pay discrepancy in the real world that Obama decries on his website isn’t that a female janitor gets paid less than her male counterpart. It’s that upper level, higher salary positions aren’t available for women. Women are more likely them men to take time off when they have children and either not come back to work at all or come back partime. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-equity-for-women/467348/10 "2008-10-10T20:59:43Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Obama’s Senate office **doesn’t** “only have men” in the high-level positions. I didn’t say that. In fact, I was quite clear that Obama has men occupying 65% of the highest paid positions, while McCain is the exact opposite, employing mostly women in the highest paid positions. The analogy of the upper management was to illustrate the glass ceiling effect (IE, that women have a hard time getting high level jobs.) Obama’s Senate office has an apparent glass ceiling that is missing in McCain’s. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-equity-for-women/467348/11 "2008-10-10T21:01:31Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Women are more likely them men to take time off when they have children and either not come back to work at all or come back partime. True, but Obama’s doesn’t feel that is an excuse for other people. Why should we extend that excuse to him? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-equity-for-women/467348/12 "2008-10-10T21:23:00Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > True, but Obama’s doesn’t feel that is an excuse for other people. Why should we extend that excuse to him? Because it’s true ? To put it another way; if some women DO work less so they can spend time with their children or for some other reason, should they be paid the same anyway ? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-equity-for-women/467348/13 "2008-10-10T21:43:28Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > I didn’t say that. In fact, I was quite clear that Obama has men occupying 65% of the highest paid positions, while McCain is the exact opposite, employing mostly women in the highest paid positions. Is it possible McCain simply had access to more women capable of doing the job(s) than Obama did? That for whatever reason there are more republican women in positions to do the best job for McCain than there are democratic women in those same positions? Just look at Michelle Obama. I seriously doubt Obama has any issue with smart and professional women. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-equity-for-women/467348/14 "2008-10-10T21:46:28Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > I didn’t say that. In fact, I was quite clear that Obama has men occupying 65% of the highest paid positions, while McCain is the exact opposite, employing mostly women in the highest paid positions. > > The analogy of the upper management was to illustrate the glass ceiling effect (IE, that women have a hard time getting high level jobs.) Obama’s Senate office has an apparent glass ceiling that is missing in McCain’s. Does that mean McCain’s office has an apparent glass ceiling for men? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-equity-for-women/467348/15 "2008-10-10T23:09:42Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Does that mean McCain’s office has an apparent glass ceiling for men? It’s only unfair if it works against women, don’t you know. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-equity-for-women/467348/16 "2008-10-11T00:09:32Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s only unfair if it works against women, don’t you know. Not according to the Equal Rights Amendment – if we can just get that passed. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-equity-for-women/467348/17 "2008-10-11T00:15:35Z")
Maybe women are more likely to quit and stay home with the children because it is easier to do without the woman’s lower paying salary. I support more child care facilities at work and a greater awareness on the part of the general public that Dad is available to pick up sick children at school also. Fathers can be very nurturing. I learned that as a child and thank heavens for that! ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-equity-for-women/467348/18 "2008-10-11T00:16:52Z")
For 20 positions, the disparity is meaningless. They’re both close enough to having a 50/50 split that arguing that one person is more or less friendly to men or women is stupid. > **[Statistical significance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_significance)** > > In statistical hypothesis testing, a result has statistical significance when a result at least as "extreme" would be very infrequent if the null hypothesis were true. More precisely, a study's defined significance level, denoted by > > > > α > > > {\\displaystyle \\alpha } > > , is the probability of the study rejecting the null hypothesis, given that the null hypothesis is true; and the p-value of a result, > > > > p > > > {\\displayst In any expe... ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-equity-for-women/467348/19 "2008-10-11T00:21:15Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Maybe women are more likely to quit and stay home with the children because it is easier to do without the woman’s lower paying salary. Or because society/people in general are far more tolerant of a woman who does so. And as I understand it; women who work the same jobs for the same amount of time make essentially the same pay; the pay differential is due to the fact that women are less willing to self immolate themselves on the altar of their jobs. They tend to prefer having something called “a life”. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-equity-for-women/467348/20 "2008-10-11T00:25:00Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > I was quite clear that Obama has men occupying 65% of the highest paid positions, while McCain is the exact opposite, employing mostly women in the highest paid positions. [I wonder why](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qUVQDmLf7s).