# Pay no taxes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2002, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-no-taxes/124762 "2002-08-20T17:25:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-no-taxes/124762/21 "2002-08-22T01:21:35Z")
Guys, I don’t think **vanilla** is saying she AGREES with this guy-I think she’s curious as to his arguments. Also, isn’t there something called the “Free Man” movement? I don’t think “Patriot” was meant as offensive-a lot of your tax protestors though co-opt the term for themselves, calling themselves “True Patriots” or whatever, to make it seem like they’re REAL Patriots, and we’re just a bunch of dupes. ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-no-taxes/124762/22 "2002-08-22T01:23:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*I have never listened to a Pink Floyd album. > I’ve read Sciff’s books . . . \*\* See, there’s your problem right there, misplaced priorities! Rather than blow your entertainment budget on enriching a loose cannon like this Schiff fellow, I’d suggest you pick up a Pink Floyd album. Believe me, it will enrich your life far more than a book by some tax protester. Most people would probably suggest Dark Side of the Moon or The Wall but, for a beginner, I’d recommend their new compilation album, Echoes. Oh, and income tax rates were relatively low in the 19th century in the United States not so much because the government couldn’t think of anything to spend money on but because people had much less disposable income. I don’t think it would have been possible to introduce a meaningful income tax in the early nineteenth century. Hitting an agricultural worker or a midwestern settler up for 20 or 30 percent of his income would have driven him and his family into starvation. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-no-taxes/124762/23 "2002-08-22T03:10:37Z")
Freakin’ board ate my post. **ElJeffe** said > [@](#): > > No, we didn’t always have an income tax. It was created in (I think) the early 20th century, and originally was supposed to only apply to the very wealthiest people, and was only about 1% of their earnings. I think it may have been one of FDR’s brilliant ideas, but I may be mistaken there. Just so people don’t come away with a squewed version of history, read [http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005921.html](http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005921.html) which is a history of the US income tax. It was instituted in 1862, to help pay for the Civil War. It taxed people at 3% _and up_. The Constitutional Amendment establishing the Income Tax was in 1913. FDR probably didn’t have much to do with that. ---
**Author:** ![ElJeffe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@ElJeffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElJeffe)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-no-taxes/124762/24 "2002-08-22T14:58:39Z")
> [@](#): > > So, we could support the military today without an income tax on the general population? NOt likely. I didn’t say that. It’s unlikely that we could maintain our military as it stands today using only import duties and the like, without such duties becoming isolationist in magnitude. Our military now has the function of serving as the world’s peace-keeper, which requires a much larger military than was probably imagined by the founding fathers. However, if there was only the military to worry about, as opposed to having to deal with social security, medicare, medicaid, the dept. of education, and such, we could make do with a small national sales tax. Even with our government as huge as it is, such a tax may work. Income tax certainly isn’t the only way to run a government, nor necessarily the best. However, this kind of goes beyond the scope of this thread. Jeff ---
**Author:** ![ElJeffe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@ElJeffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElJeffe)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-no-taxes/124762/25 "2002-08-22T15:09:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Just so people don’t come away with a squewed version of history, read [http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005921.html](http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005921.html) which is a history of the US income tax. > > It was instituted in 1862, to help pay for the Civil War. It taxed people at 3% and up. The Constitutional Amendment establishing the Income Tax was in 1913. FDR probably didn’t have much to do with that. Sorry, I was referring to the modern income tax. The one imposed during the civil war was a temporary one that only last a few years. And you’re correct, FDR didn’t create the federal income tax, he’s just the one who made it into the gigantic behemoth that we’re familiar with today: [http://www.tcf.org/Publications/Basics/Tax/History.html](http://www.tcf.org/Publications/Basics/Tax/History.html) Figure 3a on this page shows the income tax rising from about 1% of GDP in 1934 to 10% by 1945. Jeff ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-no-taxes/124762/26 "2002-08-22T21:01:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kalashnikov \* > Excuse me, **tracer** , but the term “Patriot” does not mean the same thing as “sovereign citizen” etc. Nevertheless, some groups who clearly fit the same profile as the Sovereign Citizen tax protestor crowd call themselves “Patriots” and don’t identify themselves in any other way. They use the word “patriot” as a code word for “those who convince themselves, via sovereign citizen/tax protestor pseudo-legal arguments, that they don’t have to pay income tax”. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-no-taxes/124762/27 "2002-08-22T21:37:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by samclem \* > \*\*Just so people don’t come away with a s[k]ewed version of history, read [http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005921.html](http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005921.html) which is a history of the US income tax. > > It was instituted in 1862, to help pay for the Civil War. It taxed people at 3% _and up_. The Constitutional Amendment establishing the Income Tax was in 1913.\*\* I have to correct something that appears in the above link. The linked-to page says: “[The Income Tax] had a short-lived revival in 1894 and 1895. In the latter year, the U.S. Supreme Court decided that the income tax was unconstitutional because it was not apportioned among the states in conformity with the Constitution.” This is not entirely accurate. The court case they’re discussing is Pollock v. Farmers Loan and Trust. The Supreme Court held, in a 5-to-4 ruling that flew in the face of every earlier tax case, that a tax on income **derived from property** was equivalent to a tax on the **value** of the property itself, and thus qualified as a “direct tax.” _Direct_ taxes are indeed required by the Constitution to be apportioned among the States in accordance with each State’s population, but _Indirect_ taxes are only required to be “uniform” throughout the States. Thus, Pollock v. Farmers Loan and Trust established that a tax on income derived from property was a direct tax (which had to be apportioned), but a tax on income from other sources was an indirect tax (which didn’t have to be, and in fact was not _allowed_ to be, apportioned). The 16th Amendment cleaned up this mess by saying that Congress had the power to lay and collect taxes on incomes **from whatever source derived** without apportionment. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-no-taxes/124762/28 "2002-08-23T00:22:50Z")
actually, Guin, he **did** have me convinced. See what going to the straight dope and asking will teach you? I spent no money on Schiff’s books, they are in our library. I just read though that 2 states (one is New Hampshire) don’t pay income taxes. True? I read it in a book in the childrens section called AMerica The Beautiful New Hampshire. So was Schiff convicted? Was it ever overturned? Appealed? Whe is he free now? Is he paying taxes? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Maximino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e95f7d/32.png) [@Mighty\_Maximino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Maximino)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-no-taxes/124762/29 "2002-08-23T01:06:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\* > So was Schiff convicted? > Was it ever overturned? > Appealed? > Whe is he free now? > Is he paying taxes? \*\* **vanilla** , have you been checking out _any_ of the cites provided by people in this thread? I provided one, **tracer** provided several excellent ones, and so forth. From the link that I posted originally, yes he’s been convicted at least twice, and served some jail time. 751 F2d 116 and 876 F2d 272. I looked a little and found that he was hauled into tax court at least once more in the early 90s, and required to pay a penalty for “maintaining a frivolous position before the court”. 63 T.C.M. (CCH) 2572 . He’s probably been back to court since, but I don’t feel like doing any more research. He’s probably free at the moment if he’s doing radio shows. He always appeals, and he always loses, because his legal arguments are stupid. That said, however, I have a certain awe for the guy insofar as he keeps going to prison, yet refuses to admit he’s wrong. Doesn’t help his position, of course, but it is pretty impressive. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-no-taxes/124762/30 "2002-08-23T01:48:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > **I just read though that 2 states (one is New Hampshire) don’t pay income taxes. True?** There are some states (such as Washington state and Nevada\*) where the residents don’t have to pay any **state** income taxes. They still have to pay **Federal** income taxes, though, and Fed taxes are a lot higher than State taxes in **all** states. However, as far as I know, residents of Puerto Rico do not pay Federal income taxes, due to some agreement with Puerto Rico when the territory was annexed. [sub]\*) Fun fact: Nevada is the only State in the Union that doesn’t have an _information sharing agreement_ with the Federal IRS.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-no-taxes/124762/31 "2002-08-23T20:20:07Z")
\ > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > There are some states (such as Washington state and Nevada) where the residents don’t have to pay any **state** income taxes. They still have to pay **Federal** income taxes, though, and Fed taxes are a lot higher than State taxes in **all** states. And (here in Washington State) the lack of a centralized state income tax has given rise to a higgledy-piggledy system whereby revenues are generated through a thoroughly inconsistent and constantly shifting quagmire of property, gas, business, and sales taxes, among dozens of others, which creates a sense of confusion and simmering anger, and contributes to our increasingly vociferous but ultimately self-destructive “damn the gubmint!” tax revolt. \ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-no-taxes/124762.md?page=1)