# Pay Teachers More **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2011, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-teachers-more/574532 "2011-03-13T13:46:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-teachers-more/574532/41 "2011-03-13T20:28:57Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > If higher pay were coupled to performance I’d be all for it. Without going off on a tangent, I’ll simply say that the teacher’s role is one of many things that should change in the educational model, and like so many other aspects of that model, the cookie cutter approach is not working. This is an over-generalization, but basically we have the most capable and valuable teachers working in the same kind of position on an assembly line as the least of the lot. > > Another aspect of this should be addressed as well. When people mention that teachers only work about half the time that other salaried people do, several teachers (or others) will jump in and say that’s not true, teachers spend their own after school hours grading, preparing class work, attending school functions, giving students extra help, etc.. All fine, but I am always surprised that many teachers do not realize that the extra time they put in on top of a 1200 hour a year job does not bring them close to the typical salaried employee. Very few people getting paid at the same rate as teachers work a 40 hour week. Although its common for them to work only 48 weeks out of the year, 50 or more hours per week is very common. I think it is a reflection of the numerous teachers who have no work experience outside of teaching. Among other things, one way to properly compensate teachers is to make the job conform more to other professions in terms of time and productivity factors. It all depends. I’m a software engineer; my wife is a teacher. I have to work late int the evenings and on weekends sometimes, especially when there are major deadlines coming up. But not nearly as often as my wife, during the school year. She’s grading papers and creating lesson plans nearly every evening and weekend. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-teachers-more/574532/42 "2011-03-13T20:30:06Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > Don’t forget, it many cases teachers do not pay into and are not covered by Social Security. That is the case for my wife, for example. The definied pension plan is a replacement for SS, not in addition to it. It’s shocking how many people are unaware of that. I wasn’t aware of that, my quick google search indicates that this is only the case for 14 states out of 50. So it isn’t the most common system. I always knew Railroads still ran their own entirely separate retirement system, and I knew that historically long before SS there were pension systems for government employees such as police, teachers et cetera; I had assumed most of those had long been folded into SS. But yeah, for the 14 states that don’t have SS at all, they would need to maintain some equivalent system. At least in Virginia, the teacher’s pension plan is for better than SS and is given in addition to the SS benefits they will receive at 65 (or 67 etc depending on current age.) ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-teachers-more/574532/43 "2011-03-13T20:43:26Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Ultimately, free lunches and busing aren’t terribly important - even middle-class kids get bussed. And few families in America are actually so poor as to really need free food (though I might be for it, especially if school lunches weren’t nasty). Not so. In some districts, more than half of all students are eligible for free- or reduced-price meals, and in some districts, nearly all do. In many cases, these meals are the only decent meals the child gets. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-teachers-more/574532/44 "2011-03-13T20:47:00Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > Not so. In some districts, more than half of all students are eligible for free- or reduced-price meals, and in some districts, nearly all do. In many cases, these meals are the only decent meals the child gets. I missed this. My school is 45% free/reduced lunch, I believe. I’ve had kids who, when they don’t get to school for breakfast, will end up having a can of Diet Dr. Pepper for breakfast. Mom fail, no doubt–but given the mom-fail, it’s pretty important not to follow it up with society-fail. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-teachers-more/574532/45 "2011-03-13T20:54:19Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m not sure what you mean by more demand–are you just stating a tautology, that teachers are paid less here because people think they should be paid less? If so, then the re-ordering of our society would simply mean changing our attitudes about what teachers are paid. What I’m saying is that I don’t see how it is relevant to look at the ratio of teacher pay to, say, lawyers in countries as different as the US and Korea. We have waaaay more lawyers per capita than most countries do. > [@](#): > > Well, yes, but it’s related; doesn’t that chart suggest to you that Finnish teachers are paid above average for their country, while US teachers are paid below average? Or am I totally misreading it? [Not really, and especially not across countries.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gdp_versus_household_income.png) Only a portion of GDP goes to paying salaries, and that is going to vary over time and vary by country. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-teachers-more/574532/46 "2011-03-13T21:05:40Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > This is a [PDF](http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ope/pol/tsa.pdf)of teacher shortages by state, subject matter, and year going back the last ten years. It organized somewhat confusingly, but the pattern is clear: there are persistent teacher shortages in most states in many, many subjects. And yes, there are schools and districts where getting hired is competitive, but these shortages form a nationwide pattern. I can’t make heads or tails out of that document, but I do see lots and lots of listing for “speech pathology” and “special ed” and subjects like that, which are specialty areas that wouldn’t do much to affect the average student performance in the US. > [@](#): > > In economics, a shortage of anything suggests that the market price is too low: people aren’t willing to provide at the price that people want to buy. If teaching is such a great deal relative to these other professions, why the shortages? Why are schools staffing crucial classes with permanent substitutes who have no qualifications beyond a pulse and a clean criminal record? > > In the end, any argument about relative difficulty between jobs or whether or not teachers “should” be happy at the wages they are receiving is pretty pointless–all jobs are hard, everyone wishes they were paid more. The persistent teacher shortage says more than that: it’s not teachers complaining, it’s potential teachers saying “no way that’s worth it”. So if we want better teachers, we have to find a way to make it worth it, by either raising the pay or improving the working conditions. Yep, if there is indeed a shortage. But with the unemployment rate hovering around 10%, it’s hard to imagine there being a shortage of any type of profession the US. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-teachers-more/574532/47 "2011-03-13T21:08:35Z")
How does it determine shortages? Is it talking about cases where the district is actually trying to hire and can’t find anyone? (This seems implausible to me.) Or rather, is it just talking about cases in which there should be a certain number of teachers in a school, but there are not that many? (Seems more plausible.) All of my experience and that of my friends is that it’s practically impossible to find work teaching right now. No one’s hiring. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-teachers-more/574532/48 "2011-03-13T21:11:20Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > But yeah, for the 14 states that don’t have SS at all, they would need to maintain some equivalent system. At least in Virginia, the teacher’s pension plan is for better than SS and is given in addition to the SS benefits they will receive at 65 (or 67 etc depending on current age.) My quick search suggests that those 14 states are: Alaska Maine California Massachusetts Colorado Minnesota Connecticut Missouri Illinois Nevada Kentucky Ohio Louisiana Texas There are some big states in there: according to Wiki, they add up to 40% of the population, and one assumes about 40% of teachers. So it isn’t a minor concern. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-teachers-more/574532/49 "2011-03-13T21:24:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I can’t make heads or tails out of that document, but I do see lots and lots of listing for “speech pathology” and “special ed” and subjects like that, which are specialty areas that wouldn’t do much to affect the average student performance in the US. Ten percent of students in the U.S. are in special ed. If that 10% did significantly better, it would certainly affect student performance in general. And those 10% are certainly part of the students we hope to go forward to live lives as productive citizens (something most special ed students are quite capable of doing, provided they get a good education. And I see lots of states (2/3 at least) showing shortages in math and science. Those are not minor topics. > [@](#): > > Yep, if there is indeed a shortage. But with the unemployment rate hovering around 10%, it’s hard to imagine there being a shortage of any type of profession the US. This is a problem of decades-long standing. Presumably it will be with us after the economy improves, as it is wont to do. > [@Frylock](#): > > How does it determine shortages? Is it talking about cases where the district is actually trying to hire and can’t find anyone? (This seems implausible to me.) Or rather, is it just talking about cases in which there should be a certain number of teachers in a school, but there are not that many? (Seems more plausible.) > > All of my experience and that of my friends is that it’s practically impossible to find work teaching right now. No one’s hiring. Right now is kind of a special case, as most states are gutting their education budgets: we are talking about a 20% cut in our district. But even last year, and two years from now? It’s easy to find a job as a teacher, and any number of times I’ve seen classes “taught” by substitutes all year because no one could be found. There are districts where it is hard to get on–affluent suburbs, for the most part–and I do think they over pay their teachers: if you have that many people competing, you are paying too much. But in urban and rural districts–the ones with the lousy scores–it can be a challenge to just get a body in the classroom. I’ve seen this any number of times: it’s why programs like “Teach for America” exist. Someone struggling to find a job as a teacher must be, IME, working within a pretty strict set of parameters: only a very certain subject, or only a very certain district, or something. And that’s their right. But if someone is willing to work anywhere, it’s generally pretty easy. The thing is, at the wages we are paying, few people are willing to work in an inner city school or out in Bumfuck. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-teachers-more/574532/50 "2011-03-13T21:49:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What I’m saying is that I don’t see how it is relevant to look at the ratio of teacher pay to, say, lawyers in countries as different as the US and Korea. We have waaaay more lawyers per capita than most countries do. And how fortunate we are for that–how our country does benefit! > [@](#): > > [Not really, and especially not across countries.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gdp_versus_household_income.png) Only a portion of GDP goes to paying salaries, and that is going to vary over time and vary by country. Well, yes, but notice how the lines on that graph track one another in direction; this suggests that there’s correspondence between the two, taht they’re related. My point is that in a nation in which teachers are paid higher relative to GDP, they’re probably also paid higher relative to median income, compared to countries where they’re paid lower relative to GDP. But a comparison of teacher salaries to median salaries would be a better metric for this, I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-teachers-more/574532/51 "2011-03-13T21:52:54Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > And I see lots of states (2/3 at least) showing shortages in math and science. Those are not minor topics. Yep. At a job fair I went to in 2007, the line for interviewing for a single district’s elementary ed positions was over an hour long. Nearby a neighboring district had a sign saying: “High school math teachers: $2500 signing bonus!” The principal manning that table was so bored :). I think it goes a little deeper, however. Being able to teach meteorology, or even addition, effectively to a seven-year-old is actually fairly complicated, and a deep understanding of the underlying principles will absolutely help. But people who are gifted at math tend not to go into elementary ed, I suspect: there are far more lucrative fields for them. So our elementary kids get people teaching math and science who often aren’t very skilled in these fields themselves. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-teachers-more/574532/52 "2011-03-13T22:33:33Z")
Aren’t these teacher shortages and surpluses mainly caused by an excess of teachers wanting to work in a particular region, and not wanting to work in a another? (The pay rate being one of the factors determining their ‘want’) ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-teachers-more/574532/53 "2011-03-13T22:50:51Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Aren’t these teacher shortages and surpluses mainly caused by an excess of teachers wanting to work in a particular region, and not wanting to work in a another? (The pay rate being one of the factors determining their ‘want’) Isn’t any shortage of anything caused by this? I mean, if you are asking “are there enough people holding teaching certificates to fill demand?”, I have no idea. I suspect there are, since people often leave teaching to go into other fields. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-teachers-more/574532/54 "2011-03-13T23:00:11Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > My quick search suggests that those 14 states are: > > Alaska > Maine > California > Massachusetts > Colorado > Minnesota > Connecticut > Missouri > Illinois > Nevada > Kentucky > Ohio > Louisiana > Texas > > There are some big states in there: according to Wiki, they add up to 40% of the population, and one assumes about 40% of teachers. So it isn’t a minor concern. However, my original point concerned long term feasibility of State run defined benefit pension plans. Most such plans essentially say that you take the average of the highest x number of years of pay for an individual once they retire. For conversation’s sake let’s say you take the average of the top 5 years of a person’s pay. Then you give that person anywhere from 50 to 80% of that (in some systems I’ve even seen it go higher) for the rest of their life in the form of an annual benefit. If all of a sudden teacher’s are making six figures you can probably see how quickly we can run into funding issues? With social security, high income individuals don’t really hurt the overall plan, because social security maxes out. Earnings over a certain amount are subject to Social Security withholding, and likewise, there is an absolute maximum dollar amount that you can receive in Social Security retirement benefit payments. Warren Buffet is entitled to the same payments as someone who earned roughly \> $90k a year for most of their career. And obviously I’d be talking about grandfathering in, you can’t pull the rugs out from under people who are near retirement. If we were going to raise teacher pay by 50% I would stipulate in the legislation that firstly no one hired after X date is eligible for the old defined benefit plan. I’d then say anyone currently in the system is still eligible for that plan but I’d put a hard cap on their benefit, so that they can’t collect 50-80% of a new higher salary but would instead only receive roughly what they would have if their earnings had not increased. I’d also give people the option to “cash out” of the pension plan and convert it to a 457 or similar plan for public employees. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-teachers-more/574532/55 "2011-03-13T23:13:30Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Ten percent of students in the U.S. are in special ed. If that 10% did significantly better, it would certainly affect student performance in general. And those 10% are certainly part of the students we hope to go forward to live lives as productive citizens (something most special ed students are quite capable of doing, provided they get a good education. Well, how many of them are in districts that have a teach shortage? If it’s even 20% of those students, that means we’re talking about 2% of the total students. > [@](#): > > And I see lots of states (2/3 at least) showing shortages in math and science. Those are not minor topics. > > This is a problem of decades-long standing. Presumably it will be with us after the economy improves, as it is wont to do. > > Right now is kind of a special case, as most states are gutting their education budgets: we are talking about a 20% cut in our district. But even last year, and two years from now? It’s easy to find a job as a teacher, and any number of times I’ve seen classes “taught” by substitutes all year because no one could be found. There are districts where it is hard to get on–affluent suburbs, for the most part–and I do think they over pay their teachers: if you have that many people competing, you are paying too much. But in urban and rural districts–the ones with the lousy scores–it can be a challenge to just get a body in the classroom. I’ve seen this any number of times: it’s why programs like “Teach for America” exist. > > Someone struggling to find a job as a teacher must be, IME, working within a pretty strict set of parameters: only a very certain subject, or only a very certain district, or something. And that’s their right. But if someone is willing to work anywhere, it’s generally pretty easy. The thing is, at the wages we are paying, few people are willing to work in an inner city school or out in Bumfuck. I’d like to see actual figures, not some qualitative analysis like the PDF you linked to. How many students are actually affected by a shortage of teachers? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-teachers-more/574532/56 "2011-03-13T23:27:13Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > However, my original point concerned long term feasibility of State run defined benefit pension plans. Most such plans essentially say that you take the average of the highest x number of years of pay for an individual once they retire. For conversation’s sake let’s say you take the average of the top 5 years of a person’s pay. I think we largely agree: my point is just that teachers salary structures as they are are very different than the norm–this is an historical kludge type thing–and any restructuring would be intensely complicated. It doesn’t mean it’s a bad idea or an impossible idea, just a complicated one. This is why homing in on “average compensation” is so difficult. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-teachers-more/574532/57 "2011-03-13T23:49:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, how many of them are in districts that have a teach shortage? If it’s even 20% of those students, that means we’re talking about 2% of the total students. > > I’d like to see actual figures, not some qualitative analysis like the PDF you linked to. How many students are actually affected by a shortage of teachers? Okay. This [study](http://depts.washington.edu/ctpmail/PDFs/Turnover-Ing-01-2001.pdf)(2002) establishes the main cause of teacher shortages to be high turnover, not retirement or lack of graduates: rather from teachers leaving due to > [@](#): > > teacher job dissatisfaction and teachers pursuing other jobs. The data show that, in particular, low salaries, inadequate support from the school administration, student discipline problems, and limited faculty input into school decision-making all contribute to higher rates of turnover, after controlling for the characteristics of both teachers and schools. This [report](http://www.ncsu.edu/mentorjunction/text_files/teacher_retentionsymposium.pdf) establishes that teacher turnover rates are high: > [@](#): > > Turnover for teachers is significantly higher than for other occupations (see Figure 1).1 Based on analysis of the most recent data from the National Center for Education Statistics for the 1999-2000 school year, it is estimated that almost a third of America’s teachers leave the field sometime during their first three years of teaching, and almost half leave after five years (see Figure 2).2 In many low-income communities and rural areas, the rates of attrition are even higher (see Figure 3). The attrition rate for those who enter through some “alternative” pathways can be as high as 60 percent. It goes on to mention that: > [@](#): > > Attrition rates for special education, mathematics, and science > are approaching twenty percent a year And that > [@](#): > > In short, continued high turnover rates and the chronic attrition of beginning teachers create a constant and ongoing annual pressure for hiring. In spite of what is, in fact, a surplus of potentially available teachers, an apparent shortage of fully qualified teachers choosing to teach continues to plague our nation’s schools and classrooms. The uphill climb to staff our schools with qualified teachers is made that much steeper if teachers leave in large numbers in the face of difficult conditions and few supports. I have over ten years of experience in public education, and this exactly matches my own observations. It’s hard to find qualified teachers willing to work under current conditions for current pay. If we want to change that, we have to change the conditions or the pay. The study goes on to discuss the implications: > [@](#): > > . . .the costs of replacing almost 16 percent of our teachers, every year, in this revolving door profession are astronomical. A recent study in Texas revealed that the state’s annual turnover rate of 15.5 percent of all teachers, which includes a 40 percent rate for teachers in their first three years, costs a “conservative” $329 million a year. If the organizational costs of termination, substitutes, learning curve loss, and new training are included, then the price tag could go as high as $2.1 billion. > [@](#): > > The most serious consequence, of course, is that high turnover diminishes > teaching quality and student achievement. Inexperienced teachers (those with less than two to three years of experience) are often found to be noticeably less effective than more senior teachers.14 In addition, concentrations of under-prepared teachers create a drain on schools’ financial as well as human resources. New teachers thrown into schools with high turnover and limited opportunities for mentoring by accomplished teachers often feel “lost at sea.” > [@](#): > > The National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) recently reported that more than half of the nation’s middle school students and a quarter of its high school students are learning core academic subjects from teachers who lack certification in those subjects and who did not major in them in college. This pattern of out-of-field teaching is, again, particularly severe in low-income > communities. (Note: NCLB was supposed to help with this, and it may have some in the years since this study came out.) Teacher turnover–which results in a constant pressure to hire new teachers as the leave the profession as quickly as they enter–is a real problem in education. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-teachers-more/574532/58 "2011-03-13T23:56:38Z")
OK, it looks like there was a teacher shortage some 10 years ago. But again, in this economy? There’s this huge demand for teachers, and this high unemployment rate. Is there any evidence that these unemployed people are trying to get certified? If not, then something is wrong, and it’s not pay. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-teachers-more/574532/59 "2011-03-13T23:56:57Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I think we largely agree: my point is just that teachers salary structures as they are are very different than the norm–this is an historical kludge type thing–and any restructuring would be intensely complicated. It doesn’t mean it’s a bad idea or an impossible idea, just a complicated one. This is why homing in on “average compensation” is so difficult. Right…but I would also say it’s on the people who want to boost teacher pay by 50% to figure out how to make it work, and just bankrupting State governments and/or raising taxes for all the people who work in that State or own property in that State for the sake of boosting teacher pay isn’t going to cut it. For people like me to ever vote for politicians that advocate big bumps in teacher salary I would definitely require it be done in a way that doesn’t totally fuck over States with unsustainable long term pension obligations. Public employees (including teachers) have the pension systems they do because long ago it was seen as a _service_ for the greater public good, that paid worse than what you could have made elsewhere. The trade off was partially just a feeling of civic pride, and then the monetary compensation was the fact that the State would take care of you for the rest of your life. If you guys want to make significantly more than the average college educated worker in the United States then I can’t see a compelling reason to keep the benefit system, you’re no longer taking lower pay so why should you get anything different than those other workers? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-teachers-more/574532/60 "2011-03-14T00:01:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK, it looks like there was a teacher shortage some 10 years ago. But again, in this economy? There’s this huge demand for teachers, and this high unemployment rate. Is there any evidence that these unemployed people are trying to get certified? If not, then something is wrong, and it’s not pay. And there will be a teacher shortage again in 3 years when the economy picks back up. We have a long-term teacher shortage/high turnover problem that is not going to go away because of a few years of high cyclical unemployment. In the meantime, we have a situation where the most capable teachers will flee the profession because of declining wages and worsening conditions. “Fixing” the teacher shortage by putting 40 kids in a classroom is not a solution that will improve education. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-teachers-more/574532.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pay-teachers-more/574532.md?page=4)