# "PAYBACK'S A BITCH" says grief-crazed prez--blows up wrong house, women, kids **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 14, 2006, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995 "2006-01-14T21:20:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/281 "2006-01-24T17:16:00Z")
**DMC** : You’re right - you did post a long detailed strategy, and it deserves a thoughtful reply. My apologies for missing that earlier. Here we go: > [@DMC](#): > > I want to stop acting like radical muslims are our enemy and start acting like terrorists are. If you can show a link between a particular radical muslim and a terrorist organization, feel free to get a court order to pursue that avenue. It’s hard to separate the philosophy from the actors. It’s like saying we weren’t at war with Fascism in WWII, just with Germany and its allies. While technically true, it’s impossible to seperate them. When radical Islam supports the concept of global jihad, and radical Islamists pour hundreds of millions of dollars into the global jihadist movement, and radical Islamists give speeches which incite their followers to violence, and when everyone who is trying to kill you happens to be a radical Islamist, then it’s tough to say that we’re not fighting radical Islam. > [@](#): > > I want us to round up terrorists in foreign countries with whom we are not at war using the same methods we would use to round them up in our own country. “Collateral damage” is not an acceptable method of action in our own country, so it shouldn’t be in Pakistan (or anywhere else outside of Iraq, and I’ll leave my opinion of our actions there for another thread). Would you have accepted bombiing of Joseph Padilla’s apartment complex when “going after” him? This is naive in the extreme. First, Pakistan is hardly cooperating fully with the U.S. in this regard. They’re like Saudi Arabia - allies in name, but with factions inside their own government that work against each other. When it’s clear that there are large segments of the country in which al-Qaida is allowed to operate relatively unhindered, just how do you expect to arrest them? And in fact, ‘collateral damage’ IS an accepted concept even in our own countries. Every time there is a high-speed chase or a gun battle with crooks there is a chance that innocents will be killed. Just ask the fine people of Waco Texas. > [@](#): > > I want us to stop doing exactly what the terrorists want us to do, which is piss off perfectly rational people, and having them look at the terrorists as being the lesser of two evils. Al-Qaida very likely has a presence in Pakistan. They’re not killing people there, we are. This is true, and an undesirable consequence of the tactics we are forced to use. There’s no denying that every effort should be made to minimize collateral damage, and it would be wonderful if al-Qaida just met us on a big battlefield somewhere. And if wishes were horses, we’d all be eating steak. > [@](#): > > If we are going to call Pakistan an ally, I want us to treat them as such. If we have information that organization A is going to be at location B at a specific time, then we either ask them to help us, and offer our help if they wish. You do not drop bombs, no matter how precisly aimed, at your allies. People have equated this with the Israel and Palestinian conflict elsewhere, but they’re not allies. When the prime minister of our allied country responds to our actions in **his** country with a “WTF?”, we’re doing something wrong. Pakistan is an unreliable ally, and it is treated as such. When they are cooperative, we defer to them. The U.S. has done much to aid Musharref and help keep him in power. But when they are unable to unwilling to take action, and action is necessary, then that’s the way it goes. But in fact, the way this game is played is that Pakistan IS cooperating in this way: Musharref can not sanction attacks within his own country. So he plays a game where the Pakistani government and military looks the other way while America does the dirty work. Then they issue a condemnation in the ‘strongest terms’, but without any actual consequences. This is the reality of politics in the region. If Pakistan REALLY objected to what the U.S. was doing, it could light up U.S. planes with anti-aircraft radar, fire a few shots across the bow, threaten to close the U.S. embassy, or any number of other actions. It doesn’t. This is all political theater. > [@](#): > > I want for us to release every single prisoner in Guantanamo (and elsewhere, but I can’t list what they don’t tell me exists) for whom we can’t gather enough evidence to take to trial at this time. These were combatants collected on a battlefield by soldiers, not police officers. There’s no chain of evidence, no police procedures. These people cannot be tried in a court of law. So your answer is to just let them all go? Or should we stop after every battle and sift the battlefield for evidence? Every time an enemy combatant is captured perhaps the capturing soldiers should stop and read him his Miranda rights, fingerprint him, take statements from all the witnesses, and take his mug shot? Oh, and don’t forget to pull the soldier out of combat when the trial comes up, so he can identify the bad guy on the stand and say, “Yep, that’s the guy that shot at me.” Your way of doing things devolves into capturing people on the battlefield and just rotating them right back into the conflict. Is that what you really want? > [@](#): > > Perhaps it’s not too late and their sons won’t have become terrorists to avenge the wrongs by this time. I want for us to put the others on trial immediately. You’re assuming that they’ve been ‘wronged’. Just how many people in Guantanamo do you think are really there without having done anything wrong? Do you have any idea what it would take to hold formal trials for everyone captured in battle? The whole notion is utterly ridiculous. > [@](#): > > I want for us to stop gathering up everyone in the streets when we do fuck up and can’t seem to decide if we’re at war with a country or its governing regime. Some examples, please? The U.S. military just gathers people up on the streets? I hadn’t heard about that. > [@](#): > > I want for us to stop calling everyone who fights us a “terrorist”, as there are quite a few people who just want us to leave their fucking country which did us no harm. There are terrorists out there, but throwing the word around willy nilly just makes it easy to have the label apply to us in the minds of those who could be our friends and allies. Sure. And calling real terrorists ‘freedom fighters’ or ‘insurgents’ does the same thing. I’d prefer that we label everyone with as accurate a term as possible. This is, however, a trivial issue. FWIW, I haven’t heard many people call insurgents who limit their attacks to legitimate military targets ‘terrorists’, and in fact the U.S. military has been quite specific in separating the two groups. For example, they have been extending numerous olive branches to actual insurgents who want to join the political process. > [@](#): > > I want us to retain translators of foreign languages for intelligence gathering, even if they happen to watch gay porn after hours. Hell, if it’s good enough for our “journalist” plants, it should be good enough for our translation needs. I agree 100%, and the fact that the current administration would exclude translators, who are very short supply, based on their sexual preference, is disgusting. > [@](#): > > I want us to be the good guys, so that finding people willing to help us gather intelligence won’t be as difficult. I think we ARE the good guys. I think we’re in a very difficult situation, and doing the best we can. > [@](#): > > I want for our leaders (of any political persuasion) to be honest to our own people, and to the world at large, with respect to our intentions, motivations, and actions as it pertains to international issues. Then, if we are indeed on the right path, we’ll have no problem getting the support needed to make things a lot less painful for all. If we are on the wrong path, at least we’ll know it. And I think Bush is the most honest about this as any leader the U.S. has had for a long time. It’s just that the other side is full of conspiracy theorists and nutbars who refuse to believe a thing he says. U.S. policy used to be mealymouthed because of realpolitik, in which presidents would have to say nice things about ruthless dictators because they supported them for the sake of ‘stability’. Bush is the first president to break with that policy and overtly support democracy even if it makes things unstable in the short term. He should be praised for that, rather than tarred with various ridiculous Halliburton/Carslyle Group conspiracy theories. > [@](#): > > I want the Democratic leadership of this country to tell the fear mongers to fuck the hell off, and do the right thing, even if they think it will cost them seats. Not me, because I think it’s very healthy to have a viable opposition. You really want Republicans acting like they can never be replaced? > [@](#): > > I’d rather our current leaders fuck up the our standing in the world and then let us step in and repair the damage over fucking it up with our blessing. The former allows for much less damage to be done and it allows us to man up to our country’s past mistakes with a straight face. In the end, I’d rather be right than win. I’d rather be right AND win. Which is why I support what I do. > [@](#): > > I want for us to clean up our government and eliminate corruption from all parties, from the voting process itself, and from the corporations that help us in this effort. If you want to be involved in voting in this country, you’d better have as your primary goal that every person will have full and equal access to having their voice heard. If you want to run this country, you’d better figure out how to do so on that salary that you are given by law. If you want to be the “vote-monitors” elsewhere, clean up at home first. To do otherwise just increases the number of people who question our motives, rightfully so in many cases. Yeah yeah. Diebold, stolen elections, yada yada yada. What this has to do with war on terror is beyond me. Nice talking points, though. > [@](#): > > Finally, I want for us to work closely with the law enforcement agencies in our allied countries (including our new allies we make through the above changes, and that should be most of the world) to root out actual terrorist organizations, and as a result of being the actual good guy, have no problems getting the UN come down hard on those countries that don’t play ball. Yeah, the Republican Guard in Iraq would have been a big help. And I’m sure the Mukhbarat is just itching to go arrest some Pakistani citizens for the U.S. While we’re at it, let’s get the Saudi religious police up to speed with a few episodes of ‘CSI: Riyadh’, and we can all live in peace and harmony and arrest all the bad guys. Because lord knows, none of those organizations have conflicting interests with the United States. > [@](#): > > In other words, I want us to be part of a global effort to reign in terrorism through a combination of eliminating its root causes, enhanced and legal gathering of intelligence (None of those gray areas need apply. If you need a lawyer to tell you if it’s legal or not, and if many of them disagree, it’s probably not), and a quick and effective police response as we root out terrorists in a globally united effort. And what if the ‘root cause’ of terrorism is a fanatic, fascist ideology that believes that women should be oppressed, homosexuals stoned to death, heretics killed, books banned, and a radical Islamic orthodoxy spread through the world by the sword? I mean, just for the sake of argument, what if that’s the case? Do you have a fallback plan? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/282 "2006-01-24T17:46:45Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > You never did respond to my post about internalizing collateral damage. Up to it? Is it the post that Sam just commented on or another one? Its a long ass thread…whats the post number? -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/283 "2006-01-24T17:56:21Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > We’ve killed more innocent people than all the terrorists that ever lived. How is it “self evident” ? (leaving aside your obvious hyperbole) Its ‘self evident’ to ‘anyone thats not totally delusional’. You gots to read the whole sentence. 😉 > [@Der Trihs](#): > > Dead is dead. Do you think our victims care, or their families ? Appeal to emotion. Of COURSE the ‘victims’ and ‘their families’ are going to see things differently. What else is new? AQ sees things a bit differently also. If we are going to let our actions be ruled by such thoughts (while the opposition obviously isn’t) then we will be completely crippled…and we will never do anything but sit around with our thumb up our collective asses, hoping nothing bad will happen to us while waiting for the hammer to fall. Sounds like a great plan to me. Or do you have a better one? You seem all full of piss and vinager about what the US is doing…why don’t you list what you would do and how it would be better than the example of what was done in the OP. > [@Der Trihs](#): > > And yes, our leadership and much of the public are “evil maniacs”. 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/284 "2006-01-25T19:45:18Z")
Getting back to the issue of whether U.S. policy is pushing Pakistanis away from the U.S. and into the arms of Bin Laden: [U.S. kindness wins some Muslim hearts](http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/opinion/13696020.htm) > [@](#): > > Pakistanis who have a favorable opinion of the United States doubled to more than 46 percent today from 23 percent in May 2005. According to a poll conducted by the nonpartisan organization Terror Free Tomorrow with fieldwork by ACNielsen Pakistan, **for the first time since 9/11 more Pakistanis are favorable to the United States than unfavorable.** > … > **Pakistanis who disapproved of bin Laden doubled at almost the exact same percentage as those who became favorable to the United States** (23 percent to 41 percent disapproval of bin Laden; 23 percent to 46 percent approval of the United States). The article goes on to attribute this to the massive relief efforts the U.S. has engaged in in Pakistan since the earthquakes there. Pakistanis still oppose US anti-terror policy. But the good news is that even with operations like the bombing of the al-Qaida meeting, the U.S. is actually improving its standing with the people of Pakistan, and Bin Laden’s popularity is falling. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/285 "2006-01-25T20:28:11Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > This is true, and an undesirable consequence of the tactics we are forced to use. There’s no denying that every effort should be made to minimize collateral damage, and it would be wonderful if al-Qaida just met us on a big battlefield somewhere. And if wishes were horses, we’d all be eating steak. And do you have any evidence we _are_ trying to minimize collateral damage ? > [@Sam Stone](#): > > These were combatants collected on a battlefield by soldiers, not police officers. There’s no chain of evidence, no police procedures. These people cannot be tried in a court of law. So your answer is to just let them all go? Or should we stop after every battle and sift the battlefield for evidence? Every time an enemy combatant is captured perhaps the capturing soldiers should stop and read him his Miranda rights, fingerprint him, take statements from all the witnesses, and take his mug shot? Oh, and don’t forget to pull the soldier out of combat when the trial comes up, so he can identify the bad guy on the stand and say, “Yep, that’s the guy that shot at me.” What makes you think they are “enemy combatants”, and not random citizens who got unlucky, or were turned in for the money or by a personal enemy ? > [@Sam Stone](#): > > You’re assuming that they’ve been ‘wronged’. Just how many people in Guantanamo do you think are really there without having done anything wrong? The majority of them. > [@Sam Stone](#): > > I think we ARE the good guys. I think we’re in a very difficult situation, and doing the best we can. Good guys don’t torture. We _are_ the bad guys. If the other side is all bad, that doesn’t make us good. > [@Sam Stone](#): > > And I think Bush is the most honest about this as any leader the U.S. has had for a long time. Oh please. Bush is one of the most dishonest people I’ve ever heard of; it borders on the pathological. > [@Sam Stone](#): > > I’d rather be right AND win. Which is why I support what I do. By supporting Bush, you support failure and evil. You support war and torture and lies and rape and corruption. > [@Sam Stone](#): > > Yeah, the Republican Guard in Iraq would have been a big help. They were; there was little or no Al Quaeda in Iraq, until we flung the door wide. > [@xtisme](#): > > (leaving aside your obvious hyperbole) Its ‘self evident’ to ‘anyone thats not totally delusional’. You gots to read the whole sentence. 😉 I did. Can you show that terrorists have killed more than the 30,000 to 100,000 we killed in Iraq, plus everyone else killed in the “war on terror” ? > [@xtisme](#): > > Appeal to emotion. No, just pointing out how irrelevant motive is. > [@xtisme](#): > > Or do you have a better one? You seem all full of piss and vinager about what the US is doing…why don’t you list what you would do and how it would be better than the example of what was done in the OP. Undercut the terrorists culturally, economically and politically. Fund education, pressure the locals for democratic reforms, do what we can to increase local prosperity. Also, stop handing them propaganda by raping, torturing and murdering. > [@xtisme](#): > > 😛 A rather cavalier dismissal of all the evil we’ve perpetrated. :rolleyes: Of course, it’s not like our victims were really human; just a bunch of foreign scum. If we want to kill them or torture them, or rape a few of their kids, it’s their God-ordained duty to submit. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/286 "2006-01-25T21:58:00Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > Undercut the terrorists culturally, economically and politically. Fund education, pressure the locals for democratic reforms, do what we can to increase local prosperity. Also, stop handing them propaganda by raping, torturing and murdering. Fund education? I assume you mean education that doesn’t agree with whatever the dicator in power happens to approve of, correct? Exactly how did you plan to accomplish this on a scale large enough to make a difference? Pressure the locals for democratic reforms? Guys like Saddam and Kim Jung don’t care about internation pressure (such as it is) because all it affects is their population. It doesn’t stop them from building palaces on the bones of their dead populace. The only pressure they understand is at the point of a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/287 "2006-01-25T22:16:35Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Fund education? I assume you mean education that doesn’t agree with whatever the dicator in power happens to approve of, correct? Exactly how did you plan to accomplish this on a scale large enough to make a difference? > > Pressure the locals for democratic reforms? Guys like Saddam and Kim Jung don’t care about internation pressure (such as it is) because all it affects is their population. It doesn’t stop them from building palaces on the bones of their dead populace. The only pressure they understand is at the point of a gun. If that’s the case why all the twaddle I keep hearing about the pressures for democratic reforms in Iran? Why does anyone bother with sanctions at all? Why any diplomatic steps between “we don’t like what you’re doing” and “kiss your ass goodbye”? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/288 "2006-01-26T02:49:49Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > If that’s the case why all the twaddle I keep hearing about the pressures for democratic reforms in Iran? Why does anyone bother with sanctions at all? Why any diplomatic steps between “we don’t like what you’re doing” and “kiss your ass goodbye”? > > -Joe What pressures are there for democratic reforms in Iran? The international community can’t even stop them from developing the bomb. The only reason Iran is paying lip service at this point is the very faint chance of a military intervention by some outside party. And that intervention will only occur if they don’t have the bomb. Once they do they can thumb their noses at the world. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/289 "2006-01-26T06:16:25Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > And do you have any evidence we _are_ trying to minimize collateral damage ? If the U.S. didn’t care about minimizing collateral damage, it could just carpet-bomb the region. The fact that these attacks are so rare and so precise is prima facie evidence that the U.S. is trying to be very careful. > [@](#): > > What makes you think they are “enemy combatants”, and not random citizens who got unlucky, or were turned in for the money or by a personal enemy ? Look, even if you want to believe, as you apparently do, that the U.S. military is made up of people who cackle evilly and twirl their mustaches as they kill innocent people, does it really make sense that they would decide to alienate the population by just picking some house at random and dropping very expensive smart bombs on it? > [@](#): > > Oh please. Bush is one of the most dishonest people I’ve ever heard of; it borders on the pathological. > > By supporting Bush, you support failure and evil. You support war and torture and lies and rape and corruption. How about kicking puppies? Is there still room in there for me to kick puppies? I really like kicking puppies. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/290 "2006-01-26T06:37:00Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > If the U.S. didn’t care about minimizing collateral damage, it could just carpet-bomb the region. You mean like the cluster bombs we dropped on Iraq, and are still exploding now and then, last I heard ? > [@Sam Stone](#): > > Look, even if you want to believe, as you apparently do, that the U.S. military is made up of people who cackle evilly and twirl their mustaches as they kill innocent people, does it really make sense that they would decide to alienate the population by just picking some house at random and dropping very expensive smart bombs on it? If Bush thought killing a “terrorist” would give him something he wanted, he’d order a random house bombed, and the military would do it. It doesn’t need to make sense; the people in charge are nuts. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/291 "2006-01-26T07:37:08Z")
Whatever you say. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/292 "2006-01-26T08:15:08Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Whatever you say. A truly insightful rebuttal. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/293 "2006-01-26T09:26:05Z")
I’m sorry - what was there to rebut? You claim that Bush would gladly just order the bombing of a random house full of people for yuks, because he’s evil, and that the U.S. military would just go along with it, because apparently they are evil too. This is a religious belief on your part. There is no debate here. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/294 "2006-01-26T13:06:47Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > This is a religious belief on your part. There is no debate here. _Paging maintenance! Irony cleanup on aisle six!_ ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/295 "2006-01-26T16:00:17Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > I’m sorry - what was there to rebut? You claim that Bush would gladly just order the bombing of a random house full of people for yuks, because he’s evil, and that the U.S. military would just go along with it, because apparently they are evil too. > > This is a religious belief on your part. There is no debate here. “Religious belief” ? You have heard of the war in Iraq, haven’t you ? We invaded a country for no sane reason and killed lots of innocent people. I haven’t noticed any great reluctance on the part of the military. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/296 "2006-01-26T16:00:42Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > \*\*DMC[/bIt’s hard to separate the philosophy from the actors. It’s like saying we weren’t at war with Fascism in WWII, just with Germany and its allies. While technically true, it’s impossible to seperate them. When radical Islam supports the concept of global jihad, and radical Islamists pour hundreds of millions of dollars into the global jihadist movement, and radical Islamists give speeches which incite their followers to violence, and when everyone who is trying to kill you happens to be a radical Islamist, then it’s tough to say that we’re not fighting radical Islam. It’s quite easy to separate the two, just as it would have been easy to separate Germany from Fascism in WWII. Had a German democracy done the exact same things they did, we’d have gone to war. Had a fascist country just stood around twiddling their thumbs, we’d have left them alone. > [@](#): > > This is naive in the extreme. First, Pakistan is hardly cooperating fully with the U.S. in this regard. They’re like Saudi Arabia - allies in name, but with factions inside their own government that work against each other. When it’s clear that there are large segments of the country in which al-Qaida is allowed to operate relatively unhindered, just how do you expect to arrest them? [Wrong](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,79984,00.html) [Wrong](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1907400.stm) [Wrong](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,80170,00.html) [Wrong](http://www-tech.mit.edu/V122/N40/long2.40w.html) [Wrong](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,62598,00.html) [Wrong](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/07/29/pakistan.alqaeda.capture/) [Wrong](http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/05/04/pakistan.arrest/) [Wrong](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/09/terror/main642136.shtml) [Wrong](http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2004/08/72c30e5b-c2ec-419e-b95d-5af7d9486d3e.html) [Most of the really big al-Qaeda fish have been caught by Pakistan, to which the Bush administration has just farmed out some of the most important counter-insurgency work against al-Qaeda.](http://www.juancole.com/2004_08_01_juancole_archive.html) > [@George W. Bush](#): > > Today, the governments of the United States and Pakistan are working closely in the fight against terror. President Musharraf is a friend of our country, who helped us capture Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the operational planner behind the September the 11th attacks. And Pakistani forces are rounding up terrorists along their nation’s western border. Today, because we’re working with the Pakistani leaders, Pakistan is an ally in the war on terror, and the American people are safer. > [@George W. Bush](#): > > The United States, working with Great Britain, **Pakistan** and other nations, has exposed and disrupted a major black market operation in nuclear technology led by A.Q. Khan. I think you’ll find the naivete closer to home. > [@](#): > > And in fact, ‘collateral damage’ IS an accepted concept even in our own countries. Every time there is a high-speed chase or a gun battle with crooks there is a chance that innocents will be killed. Just ask the fine people of Waco Texas. Bullshit. Our military isn’t allowed to engage in airstrikes on residential areas. Oh, and that Waco bullshit you brought up just proves my point for me. Here’s your stance on the “collateral damage” there: > [@Sam Stone](#): > > Then there’s Waco, and the ATF’s handling of the whole situation, starting with their propaganda-show initial ‘raid’, complete with media leaks, and continuing until the end, when they were firing tear gas into enclosed rooms containing children, even though the stuff is often fatal to children in such circumstances. I’m not even going to waste my time with the rest of your crap until you actually start bringing actual arguments to the table, as it’s clear you didn’t take the time to actually refute anything. In the past, you actually backed shit up, but this was little more than a bunch of talking points from a WND type diatribe. ---
**Author:** ![Scupper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Scupper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scupper)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/297 "2006-01-26T18:38:44Z")
This “debate” seems nonsensical to me. [ul] [li] **Fact:** Pakistan is our ally in the war on terror. Anyone who claims otherwise is arguing against George Bush and the facts. See **DMC’s** extensive list of cites if you believe otherwise.[/li][li] **Fact:** Pakistan has not authorized us to bomb them, and we are not at war with them.[/li][li] **Fact:** We bombed houses in Pakistan that we **believed** concealed terrorists, but that we **know** held civilians.[/li][li] **Fact:** We did not believe that this was some kind of terrorist base camp, we simply thought that some Al Queda members were there.[/li][/ul] Performing this **same exact mission** against a building in the U.S. (or in Canada or in the U.K. or in Australia) that we believed contained terrorists but that we _know_ contained civilians would be absolutely unacceptable. I understand that it is acceptable to certain members of this discussion–happy to blow up their mothers if it will impede the course of terrorism–but at least admit that the American public is not quite so willing to allow its civilians to be turned into “collateral damage.” I cannot see how anyone can defend our actions, on _any_ grounds, no matter how tenuous. For one thing, I am baffled by those who believe that smart bombs are the only weapon at the U.S.'s disposal. Ever heard of a sniper? It would still be a violation of our understanding with Pakistan to drop off a few snipers around the village to take out the suspected Al Queda members, but would the public relations fallout be anywhere near as severe? I doubt it. No snipers available? No special forces? Ground forces stretched too thin to mount an operation? (Rumsfeld would disagree with you.) Then use Hellfires from a Predator drone to take out every car that leaves the village and might be carrying a terrorist. Even something that sweeping and brutal would likely be less damning than just dropping a bomb on a house. Even from a completely unemotional, calculated, “war on terror” perspective, this was a nonsensical and dangerous action. [ul] [li]It gives Pakistanis a reason to hate and fear us. [/li][li]It puts the Pakistani government in a very awkward position vis a vis their population. A population that does _not_ support the U.S. war on terror, and has attempted several times to assassinate its ruling dictator (our buddy Musharraf).[/li][li]At _best,_ it kills a couple of Al Queda guys, opening up a few spots for promotion.[/li][li]At worst, it simply makes for a few more martyrs, while diminishing Pakistan’s willingness and ability to aid us in the war against Al Queda and making us look like we don’t care about civilians who are unlucky enough to be in the proximity of terrorists (which apparently, judging by many of the responses on this thread, we don’t), which makes us look like thugs and, yes, “terrorists” in the eyes of much of the world.[/li][/ul] If a terrorist was hiding behind a baby, would it be okay to shoot the terrorist, even if it might kill the baby? Would it be okay to blow up the terrorist, so that the baby would certainly be killed as well? How about a car with a baby in it that we’re pretty sure has a terrorist hiding in the trunk? And, please, do me a favor and don’t posit some fantasy scenario in which the terrorist will proceed directly from the car and blow up a major American city. If you want to create ludicrous situations like that, move to Hollywood. This has nothing to do with my admitted dislike of the Bush Administration, nor does it have anything to do with my opposition to a perpetual state of “war” on an enemy that can never sign a treaty of surrender or peace. Even if I wholeheartedly supported the war on terror, I can’t for the life of me figure out how tactics like this advance our cause one iota. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/298 "2006-01-26T19:06:17Z")
_Even something that sweeping and brutal would likely be less damning than just dropping a bomb on a house_ But evidently, less “thrilling” than the prospect of shredding babies whose parents have the temerity to eat dinner with someone we suspect might be passing through. I must confess that the general tenor of the 102 Airborne Dopers who can be heard thumping their virtual chests throughout this thread is less “pity, collateral damage, what can you do” than, “fuck the little towelhead bastards, they probly woulda grown up to be terrorists themselves, they deserved what they got…” Even my hypothetical drive by gangbangers, (which is what we are) expressed more regret )"lo siento mucho, those little girls, esse,…). What I am driving at in a meandering way, is that I don’t think your careful explanation of the strategic and tactical catastrophe this sort of behavior represents falls upon completely fertile soil. These people WANT to be the big bad boys on the block, and inflicting pain and contemplating it (from a safe distance) is part of their pornographic self-hypnotism that ultimately blinds them to the most elementary points of logic. That’s the root of this whole “this is war not crimefighting” meme. ( funny, crimefighting used to be productive of a sufficient testosterone high for these addicts–I fear they are showing the classic signs of needing more drug to get their thrill as time passes…) ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/299 "2006-01-26T19:20:07Z")
Not to belabor the testosterone issue , but between the chopping down the towers, the famous federal flight suit flash, and star jones recent contribution, there sure is a lot of dick waving going on for a 21st century conflict. For one thing, when cavemen did it they were naked, so it made some sense… ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/300 "2006-01-26T19:25:39Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Getting back to the issue of whether U.S. policy is pushing Pakistanis away from the U.S. and into the arms of Bin Laden: > > [U.S. kindness wins some Muslim hearts](http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/opinion/13696020.htm) > > The article goes on to attribute this to the massive relief efforts the U.S. has engaged in in Pakistan since the earthquakes there. Pakistanis still oppose US anti-terror policy. But the good news is that even with operations like the bombing of the al-Qaida meeting, the U.S. is actually improving its standing with the people of Pakistan, and Bin Laden’s popularity is falling. stone has been flogging this bullshit for months, but of course the follow up articles that discuss the shambles made of this nascent spark of gratitude by the multiple subsequent vigilante raids have not crossed, apparently, his intellectual horizon. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995.md?page=16)