# "PAYBACK'S A BITCH" says grief-crazed prez--blows up wrong house, women, kids **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 14, 2006, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995 "2006-01-14T21:20:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 2\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/301 "2006-01-27T09:05:48Z")
> [@Scupper](#): > > This “debate” seems nonsensical to me. > > [ul] > [li] **Fact:** Pakistan is our ally in the war on terror. Anyone who claims otherwise is arguing against George Bush and the facts. See **DMC’s** extensive list of cites if you believe otherwise.[/li][li] **Fact:** Pakistan has not authorized us to bomb them, and we are not at war with them.[/li][li] **Fact:** We bombed houses in Pakistan that we **believed** concealed terrorists, but that we **know** held civilians.[/li][li] **Fact:** We did not believe that this was some kind of terrorist base camp, we simply thought that some Al Queda members were there.[/li][/ul] > > Performing this **same exact mission** against a building in the U.S. (or in Canada or in the U.K. or in Australia) that we believed contained terrorists but that we _know_ contained civilians would be absolutely unacceptable. I understand that it is acceptable to certain members of this discussion–happy to blow up their mothers if it will impede the course of terrorism–but at least admit that the American public is not quite so willing to allow its civilians to be turned into “collateral damage.” > > I cannot see how anyone can defend our actions, on _any_ grounds, no matter how tenuous. > > For one thing, I am baffled by those who believe that smart bombs are the only weapon at the U.S.'s disposal. Ever heard of a sniper? It would still be a violation of our understanding with Pakistan to drop off a few snipers around the village to take out the suspected Al Queda members, but would the public relations fallout be anywhere near as severe? I doubt it. > > No snipers available? No special forces? Ground forces stretched too thin to mount an operation? (Rumsfeld would disagree with you.) Then use Hellfires from a Predator drone to take out every car that leaves the village and might be carrying a terrorist. Even something that sweeping and brutal would likely be less damning than just dropping a bomb on a house. > > Even from a completely unemotional, calculated, “war on terror” perspective, this was a nonsensical and dangerous action. > > [ul] > [li]It gives Pakistanis a reason to hate and fear us. [/li][li]It puts the Pakistani government in a very awkward position vis a vis their population. A population that does _not_ support the U.S. war on terror, and has attempted several times to assassinate its ruling dictator (our buddy Musharraf).[/li][li]At _best,_ it kills a couple of Al Queda guys, opening up a few spots for promotion.[/li][li]At worst, it simply makes for a few more martyrs, while diminishing Pakistan’s willingness and ability to aid us in the war against Al Queda and making us look like we don’t care about civilians who are unlucky enough to be in the proximity of terrorists (which apparently, judging by many of the responses on this thread, we don’t), which makes us look like thugs and, yes, “terrorists” in the eyes of much of the world.[/li][/ul] > > If a terrorist was hiding behind a baby, would it be okay to shoot the terrorist, even if it might kill the baby? Would it be okay to blow up the terrorist, so that the baby would certainly be killed as well? How about a car with a baby in it that we’re pretty sure has a terrorist hiding in the trunk? > > And, please, do me a favor and don’t posit some fantasy scenario in which the terrorist will proceed directly from the car and blow up a major American city. If you want to create ludicrous situations like that, move to Hollywood. > > This has nothing to do with my admitted dislike of the Bush Administration, nor does it have anything to do with my opposition to a perpetual state of “war” on an enemy that can never sign a treaty of surrender or peace. Even if I wholeheartedly supported the war on terror, I can’t for the life of me figure out how tactics like this advance our cause one iota. Great and if you are sane, (excusing therefore a whole swathe of participants in this shambles) unarguable. These savages don’t care about right or wrong, they don’t care about efficacy, they don’t care about dead babies or dead adults, or even their own mothers. They just want revenge, they just want people killed. They can’t listen to themselves - for them it’s actually okay, it’s actually a defence to say that it’s the ‘fault’ of the adults hosting the terrorists, or the terrorists themselves that some Bush-bot pulled the trigger on a village in an allied country. Any amount of innocents can be blown to pieces so long as a fig-leaf of ‘fault’ can be assigned. All in the name of a nation that claims to be Christian. As the bumber-sticker says ‘What Would Jesus Do?’ Yea - I’m pretty sure Jesus would be all for blowing the shit out of innocent people. :rolleyes: His Old Testament dad? For sure. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/302 "2006-01-27T09:22:07Z")
> [@Scupper](#): > > I understand that it is acceptable to certain members of this discussion–happy to blow up their mothers if it will impede the course of terrorism–but at least admit that the American public is not quite so willing to allow its civilians to be turned into “collateral damage.” I actually don’t even believe the ones who claim that this is acceptable, unless they really don’t like their mothers. They can make the claim all day long, but it’s easy to make such false claims as they live in a country where it’s just not going to happen, as it would not be deemed acceptable under any circumstances. While it’s a good thing that it’s not going to happen here, it should also not be happening in any country in which we’re not actually at war with that country as a whole. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995.md?page=15)