# "PAYBACK'S A BITCH" says grief-crazed prez--blows up wrong house, women, kids **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 14, 2006, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995 "2006-01-14T21:20:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/41 "2006-01-15T02:18:35Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > Could you please explain how we’re not at war with aQ? As I understand it, war is an [open, armed, often prolonged conflict between parties](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=war). I’d say that pretty clearly applies to the situation between the US and aQ. Simple. We have not formally declared war, nor have we defined an enemy or a goal. A dictionary definition isn’t going to cut it. That’s got nothing to do with determining a legal state of war. Sorry to bust your bubble, but “The War On Terror” is just a bumper sticker. It’s not a phrase of any legal significance. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/42 "2006-01-15T02:31:47Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > In the process we killed something like nineteen militans (so it wasn’t like this attack was a complete failure, no one seems to be addressing that.) . I have seen no reports that support your claim that 19 militants were killed. All the reports I have seen say that all the dead were rural villagers, with no foreigners among the dead. If you have more up to date information, by all means, share it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/43 "2006-01-15T02:34:00Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > I don’t think that would be inherently unreasonable, but I disagree with it as a policy. A policy that mandates inaction if there may be civilian casualties is too all-encompassing for my taste, and too likely to lead to more casualties than it saves (in my opinion). I’m only going to address this part, but I think my answer addresses the rest of your post as well. I’m not advocating a policy that mandates inaction if there may be civilian casualties. I’m advocating a pollicy that we don’t do something that absolutely will cause civilian casualties if all we’re going to get out of it is a few al Qaeda guys, even if one of them is al Zawahiri. I just don’t think it’s that important to kill this guy. In fact, we should be trying to capture him, not kill him. > [@DtC](#): > > We are not at war with al Qaeda. We are in a conflict with al Qaeda in which they are trying to kill us. The only reason you could have for not calling it a war is that al Qaeda is not a country. But I don’t know that both parties have to be countries in order for a conflict to be called a war. They have declared war on us, so perhaps your argument is with them. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/44 "2006-01-15T02:40:39Z")
It’s not a war because we haven’t declared one. I also don’t think that AQ has any meaningful ability to declare war, but the most important thing is that Congress has not said we’re at war so we’re not at war. Even if you want to call AQ’s “declaration” enough to put us in a state of war, then who is the enemy? Is it just members of AQ or does it include others? Who can we say is definitely _excluded_ as a target of our “war?” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/45 "2006-01-15T02:46:03Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > It’s not a war because we haven’t declared one. I also don’t think that AQ has any meaningful ability to declare war, but the most important thing is that Congress has not said we’re at war so we’re not at war. Even if you want to call AQ’s “declaration” enough to put us in a state of war, then who is the enemy? Is it just members of AQ or does it include others? Who can we say is definitely _excluded_ as a target of our “war?” That’s a semantic quibble that really doesn’t amount to much. They’re trying to kill us and we’re trying to kill them. Call it whatever you like. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/46 "2006-01-15T02:46:55Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > We are not at war with Afghanistan. We are not at war with al Qaeda. We are not at war with “terrorism.” It would appear, from the arguments made by the defenders of this action, that we are at war with Pakistan. Who knew? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/47 "2006-01-15T02:49:02Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > That’s a semantic quibble that really doesn’t amount to much. They’re trying to kill us and we’re trying to kill them. Call it whatever you like. Who is “them?” ---
**Author:** ![lonesome\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@lonesome\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonesome_loser)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/48 "2006-01-15T02:49:55Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Well, if the Pakistani government had given some sort of back room authorization then I have no problem with this at all. We thought a terrorist leader was there, with permission, we attacked. In the process we killed something like nineteen militans (so it wasn’t like this attack was a complete failure, no one seems to be addressing that.) In the process some civilians died. That’s what is called collateral damage, sure, they’re people. But people aren’t innately more valuable than anything else the military blows up, and in fact typically they are less so. > > Snip… > [@](#): > > Four children were among the 18 villagers who died in the brutally sudden attack on their homes. > **[The drone, the CIA and a botched attempt to kill bin Laden's deputy](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/jan/15/alqaida.pakistan)** > > In the hunt for al-Qaeda, a missile attack on a mountain village killed women and children. The attack was precise, the intelligence was flawed, and the strained relation between Pakistan and the US has been pushed to breaking point. So children in a backwater Pakistani village are militants? You approve of killing children? ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/49 "2006-01-15T02:51:42Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > All the reports I have seen say that all the dead were rural villagers, with no foreigners among the dead. If you have more up to date information, by all means, share it. The article linked by the OP quotes a Pakistani official – the same official who says that Zawahiri is not among the dead – as saying the following: > [@](#): > > But the senior Pakistani official who spoke of Mr. Zawahiri suggested that the death toll was higher, and he said that at least 11 militants had been killed in the attack. Seven of the dead were Arab fighters, and another four were Pakistani militants from Punjab Province, said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to brief the news media. So it appears that at least 7 of the dead were foreigners, and at least 11 of the dead may have been from rural villages, but that’s not all they were. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/50 "2006-01-15T03:00:07Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > It’s not a war because we haven’t declared one. I also don’t think that AQ has any meaningful ability to declare war, but the most important thing is that Congress has not said we’re at war so we’re not at war. How would it change any of the arguments made herein if we changed the word “war” to “armed conflict involving our nation’s military and aQ”? > [@Dio](#): > > Even if you want to call AQ’s “declaration” enough to put us in a state of war, then who is the enemy? Is it just members of AQ or does it include others? Who can we say is definitely _excluded_ as a target of our “war?” The enemy is aQ. It includes aQ and those aiding and abetting aQ in their conflict against us. It excludes everyone else. I don’t see how this is different than any other armed conflict we’ve been involved in. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/51 "2006-01-15T03:03:48Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Who is “them?” [Them.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_qaeda) They were able to kill almost 3,000 Americans in one day, on US soil. I’d say their ability to declare and wage war is pertty darn good. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/52 "2006-01-15T03:04:14Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > I don’t see how this is different than any other armed conflict we’ve been involved in. I could name an actual country that we were fighting for any other armed conflict we’ve been involved in. The “war” on Al-Qaida would more properly be pursued using police and law enforcement methods. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/53 "2006-01-15T03:29:27Z")
Also, it seems that attacks like this have galvanized anti-American sentiment, which does a heck of a lot more long term damage than even taking one dude out would achieve. I know some people think that this is not possible (and so any action is justifiable, since everyone is either with us or against us, and no change in sentiment makes any difference), but back in the real world, it is immensely valuable. The moral of “The Ugly American” come to mind. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/54 "2006-01-15T03:37:14Z")
> [@](#): > > They were able to kill almost 3,000 Americans in one day, on US soil. I’d say their ability to declare and wage war is pertty darn good. Actually, I’d say that it’s pretty terrible. They hit a single non-military target, not by superior force, but by subterfuge, and they had the advantage that no one manning the local defenses knew it was coming. In what war is that much of an accomplishment? In virtually any other war I can think of, such would be considered a pretty minor accomplishment. The fact that it innocent civilians is even more pathetic. Anyone can kill civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/55 "2006-01-15T03:40:11Z")
Sorry, two (or three targets) given how you define the stike. But all as a part of a single operation that they almost certainly will not be able to repeat. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/56 "2006-01-15T03:41:54Z")
We’re not in an armed conflict. We’re just going around bombing the shit out people who aren’t fighting back. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/57 "2006-01-15T03:46:39Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > [Them.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_qaeda) > > They were able to kill almost 3,000 Americans in one day, on US soil. I’d say their ability to declare and wage war is pertty darn good. That wasn’t an act of “war,” it was a one-off criminal act that can’t be repeated. The US is not in any danger. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/58 "2006-01-15T03:59:46Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > That wasn’t an act of “war,” it was a one-off criminal act that can’t be repeated. The US is not in any danger. The first World Trade Center bombing. USS Cole. Embassy bombings. Oklahoma City. While I agree that this adminstration has gained, and expanded, their power by mining the fear and hatred of it’s citizens, you’re simply wrong if you believe the US is not in any danger. It’s nowhere near what the Bush administration would have us believe, but it’s not non-existant either. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/59 "2006-01-15T04:01:47Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Can we have a cite for that quote, or did you just make it up? As Bob Dylan said, “How come d’ya have ta’ ask me that” ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/60 "2006-01-15T04:02:29Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > The first World Trade Center bombing. USS Cole. Embassy bombings. Oklahoma City. IANAA, but what does the Oklahoma bombing have to do with this? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995.md?page=4)