# "PAYBACK'S A BITCH" says grief-crazed prez--blows up wrong house, women, kids **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 14, 2006, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995 "2006-01-14T21:20:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/61 "2006-01-15T04:06:15Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > IANAA, but what does the Oklahoma bombing have to do with this? It’s was a terrorist attack. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/62 "2006-01-15T04:09:49Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > It’s was a terrorist attack. 😕 True, but the context here was “acts of war”. Whatever the others were, the Oklahoma bombing certainly wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/63 "2006-01-15T04:10:21Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > [Them.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_qaeda) > > They were able to kill almost 3,000 Americans in one day, on US soil. I’d say their ability to declare and wage war is pertty darn good. And we got into Iraq to look for them, no? :dubious: I have to say that since we still have in power the same group that mislead us into expanding the war on terror to places that were not related to it, and have used torture to get the false information that they wanted to justify the Iraq war. I can only assume that this last incident had a similar “corroboration”. If we are willing to consider torture because it “works” we are ignoring that for something so loathsome to work on occasion, that one also needs to have rulers that are not following preconceived notions. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/64 "2006-01-15T04:12:04Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > It’s was a terrorist attack. 😕 there are popular, but unproven, theories that there is a link ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/65 "2006-01-15T04:12:13Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > How would it change any of the arguments made herein if we changed the word “war” to “armed conflict involving our nation’s military and aQ”?The enemy is aQ. It includes aQ and those aiding and abetting aQ in their conflict against us. It excludes everyone else. > > I don’t see how this is different than any other armed conflict we’ve been involved in. the lack of a geographically contiguous territory inhabited by an enemy, within which territory collective punishment may legitimately be inflicted–ie, a country at war with us.,fatally distinguishes this from a war, and fatally dooms our approach to failure. ONLY law enforcement can work, precisely because of the tedious delays that due process imposes. the kind of delays that prevent both lynchings and drive-by bystander slaughter, among other acts of lawlessness. Just because we call it a war, doesn’t make it legal to punish anyone we find in the wrong place at the wrong time. That conduct IS reserved for conflict among nations precisely because at the national level some decision has been taken by both parties, raising the stakes to survival of the national entity. Then you’re allowed to fire away, but only on the enemy side of the border. Outside those borders the laws change. That’s a principle flaw in the israeli/american tactic of extrajudicial assissination. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/66 "2006-01-15T04:17:10Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > So it appears that at least 7 of the dead were foreigners, and at least 11 of the dead may have been from rural villages, but that’s not all they were. So it is your belief that none of the 18 (including the children) were innocent civilians, thereby rendering this a totally righteous operation? Amazing. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/67 "2006-01-15T04:19:41Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > there are popular, but unproven, theories that there is a link :smack: duh - that’s why it’s a theory. What I meant was there are theories that link OKC to terrorism, I make no claim as to whether they are based on any fact or are just guano crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/68 "2006-01-15T04:22:13Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > What I meant was there are theories that link OKC to terrorism, I make no claim as to whether they are based on any fact or are just guano crazy. Might I suggest that what you mean is there are theories that link OKC to terrorist organisations? ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/69 "2006-01-15T04:25:06Z")
they were in the wrong place at the wrong time–that’s close enough for government work Have you never heard the formula kill’em all and let god sort’em out??? ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/70 "2006-01-15T04:29:37Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > Might I suggest that what you mean is there are theories that link OKC to terrorist organisations? you didn’t recognize Identity Christianity as a variant of the Shia teaching of Khomenei? are you willfuly blind, or merely disingenuous??? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/71 "2006-01-15T04:41:40Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > you didn’t recognize Identity Christianity as a variant of the Shia teaching of Khomenei? > are you willfuly blind, or merely disingenuous??? Uhm. I’m being whooshed here, right? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/72 "2006-01-15T04:46:27Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > Uhm. I’m being whooshed here, right? 😕 Who knows? Just in case it clears anything up, the theory that **flickster** refers to is that Terry Nichols was taught bomb-making by a terrorist group (possibly linked to AQ) on his visits to the Phillipines. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/73 "2006-01-15T04:57:17Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > So it is your belief that none of the 18 (including the children) were innocent civilians, thereby rendering this a totally righteous operation? Amazing. No. Nor have I either said or implied otherwise. In fact, I’ve specifically said the exact opposite. It’s my opinion that you either haven’t read any articles on the subject, or you’re being intentionally dishonest. I’m leaning toward the latter. Maybe start by reading either the article linked by the OP or at least the portion that I quoted. Or are you under the impression that an operation can’t kill both civilians and non-civilians? ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/74 "2006-01-15T05:00:55Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Who knows? > > Just in case it clears anything up, the theory that **flickster** refers to is that Terry Nichols was taught bomb-making by a terrorist group (possibly linked to AQ) on his visits to the Phillipines. I wasn’t going to offer, because like I stated she may be full of guano for all I know, but another theory is the one being pushed by Jayna Davis in her book, _The Third Terrorist_ ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/75 "2006-01-15T05:08:12Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > I wasn’t going to offer, because like I stated she may be full of guano for all I know, but another theory is the one being pushed by Jayna Davis in her book, _The Third Terrorist_ You can read all about Jayna Davis is this [World Nut daily](http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=22122) article. She manages to link OKC to both AQ and Saddam Hussein. She was “flabbergasted” that the FBI wouldn’t take her seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/76 "2006-01-15T05:14:59Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > No. Nor have I either said or implied otherwise. In fact, I’ve specifically said the exact opposite. Perhaps it was this statement of yours that confused me: > [@](#): > > So it appears that at least 7 of the dead were foreigners, and at least 11 of the dead may have been from rural villages,\*\* but that’s not all they were\*\*. The bolded part implies the 11 villagers also had some nefarious links. Perhaps you could clarify that part for me. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/77 "2006-01-15T05:22:18Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > We’re not in an armed conflict. We’re just going around bombing the shit out people who aren’t fighting back. Well, I don’t know if that’s reassuring or disturbing. On the one hand, our troops can rest easy now that they’re no longer in danger while in Iraq and Afghanistan. On the other hand, what do you suppose happened to the 2,000+ American casualties in Iraq? And what happened to the [256 Americans, 1 Australian, 5 Britons, 8 Canadians, 3 Danes, 3 French, 18 Germans, 3 Italians, 1 Norwegian, 1 Portuguese, 1 Romanians, 17 Spaniards and 1 Swede](http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2004/oef.casualties/) killed in Afghanistan? Were they all accidents? The result of friendly fire? Or maybe they were all invented by the Bushista regime as an excuse to bomb women and children? I wonder what we should tell the family of [Petty Officer 2nd Class Matthew G. Axelson](http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2004/oef.casualties/): > [@](#): > > Axelson was part of a four-man SEAL reconnaissance team that called for help during a firefight with Taliban fighters in Kunar Province, Afghanistan, on June 28, 2005. His remains were found during a combat search and rescue operation on July 10, 2005. Two other team members were killed but a third survived. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/78 "2006-01-15T05:31:32Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > Well, I don’t know if that’s reassuring or disturbing. On the one hand, our troops can rest easy now that they’re no longer in danger while in Iraq and Afghanistan. On the other hand, what do you suppose happened to the 2,000+ American casualties in Iraq? And what happened to the [256 Americans, 1 Australian, 5 Britons, 8 Canadians, 3 Danes, 3 French, 18 Germans, 3 Italians, 1 Norwegian, 1 Portuguese, 1 Romanians, 17 Spaniards and 1 Swede](http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2004/oef.casualties/) killed in Afghanistan? Were they all accidents? The result of friendly fire? Or maybe they were all invented by the Bushista regime as an excuse to bomb women and children? > > I wonder what we should tell the family of [Petty Officer 2nd Class Matthew G. Axelson](http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2004/oef.casualties/): I was only talking about TWAT, not Iraq. They’re two different things. A few hundred casualties in Afghanistan is not very indicative of a heated conflict, especially since many of those casualties _are_ from friendly fire, accidents and suicides. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/79 "2006-01-15T05:31:39Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > The bolded part implies the 11 villagers also had some nefarious links. Perhaps you could clarify that part for me. Sure. I was implying that 11 of the individuals killed had nefarious links. So your description of them as “villagers” may be technically accurate – for all we know, they could have come from villages – but they weren’t from the village that was bombed. Here’s the same portion of the article that I quoted earlier, and which was linked by the OP, but you apparently still haven’t read (emphasis added): > [@](#): > > But the senior Pakistani official who spoke of Mr. Zawahiri suggested that the death toll was higher, and he said that _at least 11 militants had been killed in the attack_. _Seven_ of the dead were Arab _fighters_, and another _four_ were Pakistani _militants_ from Punjab Province, said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to brief the news media. So despite what you said, it appears that 11 of the “villagers” did have nefarious links. And despite what you said, it appears that at least 7 of the dead were foreign. Frankly, I’m not sure where you’re getting confused. It’s blatantly obvious that the linked article says the attack killed both militants and civilians. And it says that at least 11 of the militants killed were not from the village that was bombed. Why is that difficult to understand? ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/80 "2006-01-15T05:36:28Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Sorry, two (or three targets) given how you define the stike. But all as a part of a single operation that they almost certainly will not be able to repeat. What? Why could they not repeat it? This actually happened because I spoke with the guy it happened to and I have no reason to doubt him: This guy I work with had taken his backpack to the pistol range with him. He left a full clip of .45 caliber shells in the backpack. He used this same backpack to travel to Yemen with. He left from Dallas. It wasn’t until Frankfurt that he found this clip sitting in the bottom of his pack. He promptly ditched the clip in a trash container. There was no attempt to hide the item, it was sitting loose in his pack. I imagine if you thought about it you could find a way to do it on purpose rather than by accident. I don’t doubt that someone in AQ is thinking up ways to do this very thing. The only reason I can think of that they haven’t done it again is because they don’t want to do anything that would strenghten their enemies will to fight. They know eventually support back in the US will wane and you will go home. I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the information that is given to US forces is given to them by AQ in the hope that the US will blow up ‘innocents’ and generate even more opposition back in the US. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995.md?page=5)