# "PAYBACK'S A BITCH" says grief-crazed prez--blows up wrong house, women, kids **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 14, 2006, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995 "2006-01-14T21:20:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/81 "2006-01-15T05:45:33Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > Sure. I was implying that 11 of the individuals killed had nefarious links. So your description of them as “villagers” may be technically accurate – for all we know, they could have come from villages – but they weren’t from the village that was bombed. > > Here’s the same portion of the article that I quoted earlier, and which was linked by the OP, but you apparently still haven’t read (emphasis added):So despite what you said, it appears that 11 of the “villagers” did have nefarious links. And despite what you said, it appears that at least 7 of the dead were foreign. > > Frankly, I’m not sure where you’re getting confused. It’s blatantly obvious that the linked article says the attack killed both militants and civilians. And it says that at least 11 of the militants killed were not from the village that was bombed. Why is that difficult to understand? You’re putting an awful lot of trust in the uncorroborated word of a “Pakastani official.” What is the definition of a “militant,” by the way? ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/82 "2006-01-15T05:48:10Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > A few hundred casualties in Afghanistan is not very indicative of a heated conflict, especially since many of those casualties _are_ from friendly fire, accidents and suicides. You didn’t say it wasn’t a heated conflict. You said we’re “just going around bombing the shit out of people who can’t fight back.” That’s ridiculous and insulting to the soldiers who put their lives on the line, to say nothing of those who have died while fighting. And what difference does it make if the conflict is heated? If we assume that you did not mean what you said, but instead meant “we’re bombing the shit out of people [with whom we are fighting a not very heated conflict],” then your argument doesn’t make any sense. Are we not allowed to bomb enemies if the conflict isn’t “heated” enough? Do we have to have thousands of casualties before we can use bombs? And how is Iraq not a part of the War on Terror? Even if we assume that deposing Hussein had no bearing on terrorism – a point that I’m not willing to concede, but not willing to argue here – we’re certainly fighting terrorists and terrorism there now. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/83 "2006-01-15T05:55:35Z")
I don’t know what “terrorism” means. We were trying to chase down a few specific criminals who commited a major crime in the US. As far as I’m concerned, that’s all we ever had the right to do. It should never have been treated as a military operation and we sure as hell don’t have the right to kill any civilians while we’re pursuing a criminal grievance. That village in Pakistan never did anything to us. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/84 "2006-01-15T05:55:52Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > … > Just because we call it a war, doesn’t make it legal to punish anyone we find in the wrong place at the wrong time. That conduct IS reserved for conflict among nations precisely because at the national level some decision has been taken by both parties, raising the stakes to survival of the national entity. Then you’re allowed to fire away, but only on the enemy side of the border. Outside those borders the laws change. That’s a principle flaw in the israeli/american tactic of extrajudicial assissination. In vengeance there is a continuum of responses by the US. At one extremity is measured targetting of the surviving individuals and their network. Further along that continuum is violence to persons with a general sympathy to Al-Quaeda, then further still, those hostile to the US. Islamic people as a whole then, at the end of the continuum is action against non-American, non-Christians and anyone at all the victim of US military action under this administration. Educated people, the law and reasoning people and the majority of this board appear to support the mild end of the continuum and are appalled by much motion further along it. By contrast President Bush derives a wide corps of his votes from those near the Hawk end of the continuum. His duty to feed their appetite in these ways and this news has met with delight. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/85 "2006-01-15T05:57:55Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > You’re putting an awful lot of trust in the uncorroborated word of a “Pakastani official.” No, I’m not. I don’t necessarily believe or disbelieve him. But if we’re going to believe him when he says that the attack didn’t kill Zawahiri, that civilians were killed in the attack, that Pakistan didn’t authorize the attack, and that the US is being called to answer for the attack, then I suppose we should place the same amount of “trust” in his characterization of who was killed in the attack. And frankly, I’m not sure why someone who thinks the attack was bad would then lie about a mitigating factors. Seems to me that you’re only trusting the Pakistani official to tell the truth about the facts that you find convenient, and saying that he’s untrustworthy when you like his facts. > [@](#): > > What is the definition of a “militant,” by the way? It’s not my word. You might want to ask either the NY Times or the Pakistani official. But if I had to guess, I’d say it’s a military person or person otherwise engaged in fighting. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/86 "2006-01-15T06:06:01Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > And how is Iraq not a part of the War on Terror? Even if we assume that deposing Hussein had no bearing on terrorism – a point that I’m not willing to concede, but not willing to argue here – we’re certainly fighting terrorists and terrorism there now. We are? I thought we were fighting an insurgency. I find the application of the word terrorists to be facile and self-serving. Iraq represented an illegal invasion and occupation which is being unsurprisingly met with violent resistance. It’s a resistance which never would have occurred if we hadn’t invaded in the first place and there isn’t the slightest reason to believe that any of the insurgents ever would have been a threat to the US if we hadn’t attacked them first. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/87 "2006-01-15T06:11:28Z")
I just want to add that I don’t believe the Iraqi insurgents are a threat to the US even now. They are a threat to US soldiers who have been betrayed by their civilian leadership and put into harm’s way for no reason, but they are not a threat to the US itself. We’re going to be fine. The Iraq war has never had anything to do with the defending the US. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/88 "2006-01-15T06:11:29Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I don’t know what “terrorism” means. :rolleyes: Are we going to play this game with every word used? I have a feeling you know exactly what the word “terrorism” means. But on the off chance you don’t, here’s yet another link to [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=terrorism). > [@](#): > > We were trying to chase down a few specific criminals who commited a major crime in the US. As far as I’m concerned, that’s all we ever had the right to do. That was not my understanding, nor do I believe it was the understanding of the vast majority of people who supported the war in Afghanistan and/or Iraq. The point was to chase down the people who committed criminal acts, dismantle their organization, and takes steps to decrease the likelihood of future attacks. I believe we had a right to do all those things. > [@](#): > > That village in Pakistan never did anything to us. Ugh. Nor did the city of Berlin ever do anything to us, and yet we bombed it in World War 2. But then again, that’s probably due in part to the fact that cities are merely areas of land inhabited by people, and thus incapable of actually doing anything. The issue isn’t whether the village has done anything to us, but whether the people in the village have or will do anything to us. We believed Zawahiri was in the village; and Zawahiri has most certainly done things to us. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/89 "2006-01-15T06:19:19Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > We are? I thought we were fighting an insurgency. I find the application of the word terrorists to be facile and self-serving. What do you make of “[al Queda in Iraq](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3483089.stm),” the name of Zarqawi’s “insurgent” group? Can we agree that they’re terrorists? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/90 "2006-01-15T06:34:50Z")
I think “terrorist” is a meaningless word. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/91 "2006-01-15T06:51:04Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I think “terrorist” is a meaningless word. I think it means “one who engages in terrorism.” (I don’t mean that to be snarky, just obvious.) And if I may be allowed to guess where this is headed, [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) defines terrorism as: > [@](#): > > The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons. I think that definition is incomplete insofar as I believe terrorism implies the use of guerrilla tactics (as opposed to head-on conflicts with military forces), necessarily involves political or ideological motivations, and perhaps most importantly, requires the targetting of civilians for purposes of achieving its political or ideological goals. It also frequently implies the lack of a state actor. Thus, the OKC bombing was a terrorist act; the bombing of London in World War 2 was not. Naturally, there will be circumstances in which the word is abused beyond its true meaning, and there will be circumstances that do not clearly fall within or without its boundaries. But that doesn’t mean the word is meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/92 "2006-01-15T06:56:49Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > :rolleyes: Are we going to play this game with every word used? I have a feeling you know exactly what the word “terrorism” means. But on the off chance you don’t, here’s yet another link to [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=terrorism). That was not my understanding, nor do I believe it was the understanding of the vast majority of people who supported the war in Afghanistan and/or Iraq. The point was to chase down the people who committed criminal acts, dismantle their organization, and takes steps to decrease the likelihood of future attacks. I believe we had a right to do all those things. Ugh. Nor did the city of Berlin ever do anything to us, and yet we bombed it in World War 2. > > But then again, that’s probably due in part to the fact that cities are merely areas of land inhabited by people, and thus incapable of actually doing anything. The issue isn’t whether the village has done anything to us, but whether the people in the village have or will do anything to us. We believed Zawahiri was in the village; and Zawahiri has most certainly done things to us. but the people in the german cities were part of a NATION that was at WAR with us, like I said. What part of contiguous land mass inhabited by an enemy with internationally recognized jurisdiction over area and a monopoly of the legitimate use of force within the described boundaries? I suppose you are untroubled by the MOVE bombing in Philadelphia. What if Zawahiri were 'reported" to have been at your neighbor’s house and ( you can see where this is going, can you not?) Why does the extrajudicial execution authority hve to stop at our borders, if Pakistani villages re fair game for having (maybe) a high value target passing through, how about Brooklyn? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/93 "2006-01-15T06:57:07Z")
Under that definition, the US has been engaging in terrorism for basically its entire existence. WWII included some particularly massive and deliberate attacks on civilians. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/94 "2006-01-15T07:01:20Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > In vengeance there is a continuum of responses by the US. At one extremity is measured targetting of the surviving individuals and their network. Further along that continuum is violence to persons with a general sympathy to Al-Quaeda, then further still, those hostile to the US. > > Islamic people as a whole then, at the end of the continuum is action against non-American, non-Christians and anyone at all the victim of US military action under this administration. > > Educated people, the law and reasoning people and the majority of this board appear to support the mild end of the continuum and are appalled by much motion further along it. > > By contrast President Bush derives a wide corps of his votes from those near the Hawk end of the continuum. His duty to feed their appetite in these ways and this news has met with delight. I’m afraid that you have laid it out pretty accurately. One asks oneself how many muslims the repugs would be willing to kill, if they defined that “coalition of the dangerous” at it’s widest (cf. japanese internment–that was a whopper of a wide definition…) If you have a strong stomach, you can go over to Little Green Snotballs and find widespread enthusiasm for a nuclear (final) solution to “:our” muslim problem… ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/95 "2006-01-15T07:11:43Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > What do you make of “[al Queda in Iraq](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3483089.stm),” the name of Zarqawi’s “insurgent” group? Can we agree that they’re terrorists? yes, but they are OUR terrorists… When Come Back, Bring Foil; Abu Musab Al-zarquai, Agent Provacateur [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=301027](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=301027)… ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/96 "2006-01-15T07:39:25Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > The article linked by the OP quotes a Pakistani official – the same official who says that Zawahiri is not among the dead – as saying the following:So it appears that at least 7 of the dead were foreigners, and at least 11 of the dead may have been from rural villages, but that’s not all they were. nday, January 15, 2006; Page A01 KABUL, Afghanistan, Jan. 14 – Pakistani officials said Saturday that a U.S. missile strike intended to kill al Qaeda deputy Ayman Zawahiri had missed its target but had killed 17 people, including six women and six children. Can we agree that the children, whether or not foreigners, whether or not from rural villages, were not "people who help al quaeda( "by eating dinner with them)? ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/97 "2006-01-15T07:43:35Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > : We believed Zawahiri was in the village; and Zawahiri has most certainly done things to us. Once again what if we believed zawahiri was on a particular block in brooklyn, on atlantic avenue, where he was surrounded by muslims and likely to be warned if a dragnet were tried…? OK to use a predator on the apartment building he’s in?(or they THINK he’s in, cause, after all, they do make mistakes… ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/98 "2006-01-15T07:49:49Z")
Pakistan is (justifiably…)on FIRE This ass-scratching cracker president has possibly blown off Musharraf-He’ll never survive this, anymore than Bush could survive an alliance withFox if Mexico dropped a bomb on some neighborhood in Brownsville. The people would not stand for it. What makes us think the Pakistani people will? . [http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/15/international/asia/15pakistan.html?hp&ex=1137387600&en=7df241858f72459a&ei=5094&partner=homepage](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/15/international/asia/15pakistan.html?hp&ex=1137387600&en=7df241858f72459a&ei=5094&partner=homepage) Airstrike by US Draws Protests From Pakistanis New York Times, United States - 2 hours ago Pakistani tribesmen marched Saturday near Damadola to protest the airstrike. Local officials in the region, the Bajaur district, said … ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/99 "2006-01-15T08:05:35Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Under that definition, the US has been engaging in terrorism for basically its entire existence. WWII included some particularly massive and deliberate attacks on civilians. Sure, that might be true under [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com)’s definition (although I’d quibble with whether the bombing was “illegal”). Hence, my alterations to the definition. And my equivocation in this part of my post: > [@](#): > > Naturally, there will be circumstances in which the word is abused beyond its true meaning, and there will be circumstances that do not clearly fall within or without its boundaries. But that doesn’t mean the word is meaningless. I’m sure you’re aware that there is currently a debate about what constitutes a planet vs. an asteroid or a star. Does that mean we shouldn’t try to land on Mars? And courts are constantly dealing with whether certain individuals are “mentally competent” to stand trial. Does that possible disagreement mean we shouldn’t allow that defense? The fact that people can debate about whether or not certain activities fall under the definition of “terrorism” doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to eradicate it when we can agree on the definition. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995/100 "2006-01-15T10:09:53Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > That wasn’t an act of “war,” it was a one-off criminal act that can’t be repeated. The US is not in any danger. One-off criminal act? **Diogenes** ,why don’t you take a look at this timeline which started in April 1983: Beirut, U.S. Embassy Suicide car bomb 63 killed Radical Shiite Muslim group takes credit. Warning: It’s a LONG list. [http://www.simplytaty.com/broadenpages/terrorism.htm](http://www.simplytaty.com/broadenpages/terrorism.htm) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paybacks-a-bitch-says-grief-crazed-prez-blows-up-wrong-house-women-kids/339995.md?page=6)