# Paying a debt with coins. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 11, 2007, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-a-debt-with-coins/418784 "2007-09-11T14:15:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![picunurse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@picunurse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picunurse)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-a-debt-with-coins/418784/1 "2007-09-11T14:15:07Z")
I just heard a news story about a guy with $700 in traffic tickets. He’s tried to pay them, with coins. The clerk’s office accepted a little over $100 in rolled coins and some unknown amount in loose coins. Now, they say they won’t accept any more coins. He’s been told that if the fines aren’t paid by a certain date, he will be jailed. He says the reason he got the ticket in the first place is because of anti-government stickers on his car. :dubious: I understand that the guy is doing it to be a PITA, but aren’t coins legal tender? How can they take some but not all? ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-a-debt-with-coins/418784/2 "2007-09-11T14:26:49Z")
[QUOTE=picunurse] … but aren’t coins legal tender? [/QUOTE] There is a common misconception that “legal tender” means that it must be accepted. This is not the case. A merchant or seller may specify the type of payment that will be accepted. If I offer to sell you a car for 50 pesos and you show up with dollars no law says I have to accept the offered dollars. As for this situation I would guess that a government office could argue that some asshole who wants to pay with unrolled penny’s would cause undue delay. They can tell him to either roll them up or come back with bills. I bet they could even tell him to pound sand if he tried to pay with one dollar bills. Now if he missed a deadline while trying to get acceptable denominations he could probably offer his forced delay as a defense unless he just said screw it and didn’t try to comply. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-a-debt-with-coins/418784/3 "2007-09-11T14:28:05Z")
Just because they are legal tender doesn’t mean places have to accept them. Businesses and agencies can set whatever rules they like as to how they are to be paid. Some will accept only credit cards. Others only cash. I’d be willing to bet that this guy isn’t the first person to try this with this state’s DMV, and that they have a policy about loose coin that reflects this previous encounter. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-a-debt-with-coins/418784/4 "2007-09-11T14:31:27Z")
[Is it legal to pay a big debt in small change?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_330.html) _And see_, [http://www.mtas.tennessee.edu/KnowledgeBase.nsf/vwebauthor/AB04FB8C07985FEC852570310052C341](http://www.mtas.tennessee.edu/KnowledgeBase.nsf/vwebauthor/AB04FB8C07985FEC852570310052C341) (discussing some cases). ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-a-debt-with-coins/418784/5 "2007-09-11T14:42:00Z")
Earlier posters are actually talking about something different than the scenario in the OP. It is true that merchants don’t have to accept any particular form of payment but that is because you haven’t incured a debt with them. They simply refuse to sell you something at all. However, the situation in the OP is a debt and presenting coins for payment should fulfill the obligation to pay off the debt whether the clerk’s office likes it or not. That is where the phrase “all debts, public and private” would apply. Cecil’s cloumn implies the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-a-debt-with-coins/418784/6 "2007-09-11T14:53:17Z")
[QUOTE=Shagnasty] However, the situation in the OP is a debt and presenting coins for payment should fulfill the obligation to pay off the debt whether the clerk’s office likes it or not. That is where the phrase “all debts, public and private” would apply. Cecil’s cloumn implies the same thing. [/QUOTE] Check out my second link. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-a-debt-with-coins/418784/7 "2007-09-11T15:01:00Z")
[QUOTE=Gfactor] Check out my second link. 😃 [/QUOTE] Better still check out what the [US Treasury](http://www.ustreas.gov/education/faq/currency/legal-tender.shtml#q1) says about it. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-a-debt-with-coins/418784/8 "2007-09-11T15:07:06Z")
Another issue for consideration is whether a fine is a “debt” prior to entry of a civil judgment. You can certainly choose to contest the fine by not paying it. If you go to court and win then it was not a debt. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-a-debt-with-coins/418784/9 "2007-09-11T15:19:29Z")
[QUOTE=askeptic] Better still check out what the [US Treasury](http://www.ustreas.gov/education/faq/currency/legal-tender.shtml#q1) says about it. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > I thought that United States currency was legal tender for all debts. Some businesses or governmental agencies say that they will only accept checks, money orders or credit cards as payment, and others will only accept currency notes in denominations of $20 or smaller. Isn’t this illegal? > > The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled “Legal tender,” which states: “United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues.” > > This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy. I’m not really sure what this means. Is it consistent with the cases cited in the link? Although the question addresses governmental agencies, the author doesn’t explicitly respond to this part of the question. > [@](#): > > Another issue for consideration is whether a fine is a “debt” prior to entry of a civil judgment. You can certainly choose to contest the fine by not paying it. If you go to court and win then it was not a debt. Huh? You can certainly contest a ticket, but not paying it isn’t the way to do it. You’d need to demand a trial. If you don’t ask for a trial or pay the fine, they come and get you. There generally isn’t a “civil judgment,” and that’s not really the test for whether it’s a debt or not, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-a-debt-with-coins/418784/10 "2007-09-11T15:32:22Z")
I thought the “If you go to court and win” part kind of implied you demanded a trial since you can’t get a trial unless you demand one. YMMV. OK, I’ll bite. What is the test for whether something is a debt or not? ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-a-debt-with-coins/418784/11 "2007-09-11T15:54:45Z")
[QUOTE=askeptic] I thought the “If you go to court and win” part kind of implied you demanded a trial since you can’t get a trial unless you demand one. YMMV. [/QUOTE] Ahhh… now I see it: > [@](#): > > You can certainly choose to contest the fine by not paying it. Very subtle 😃 (also terrible legal advice). > [@](#): > > OK, I’ll bite. What is the test for whether something is a debt or not? It’s gonna depend on the context, and certainly if a creditor sues you to collect a debt and loses, you don’t owe the money. Here’s an example of a legal definition of debt: > [@](#): > > (5) The term “debt” means any obligation or alleged obligation of a consumer to pay money arising out of a transaction in which the money, property, insurance or services which are the subject of the transaction are primarily for personal, family, or household purposes, whether or not such obligation has been reduced to judgment. [Fair Debt Collection Practices Act | Federal Trade Commission](http://www.ftc.gov/os/statutes/fdcpa/fdcpact.htm#803) One from an investment glossary: > [@](#): > > An amount owed to a person or organization for funds borrowed. Debt can be represented by a loan note, bond, mortgage or other form stating repayment terms and, if applicable, interest requirements. These different forms all imply intent to pay back an amount owed by a specific date, which is set forth in the repayment terms. [http://www.investorwords.com/1313/debt.html](http://www.investorwords.com/1313/debt.html) And a dictionary: > [@](#): > > 1 : SIN, TRESPASS > 2 : something owed : OBLIGATION \ > 3 : a state of owing \ > 4 : the common-law action for the recovery of money held to be due > > - debt·less /-l&s/ adjective [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/debt](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/debt) What were you relying on? Requiring a judgment makes little sense in the context under discussion. You’re suggesting what? That I _can_ pay in coin over a creditor’s objection, but only if I make him sue me for the money first? Do you think that’s what the drafters of the statute had in mind? Why? ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-a-debt-with-coins/418784/12 "2007-09-11T16:19:06Z")
NO. I don’t think you can be unreasonable (ie. attempting to pay a large debt with pennys) at any time. I don’t think “Legal Tender” means what most people think it means. But I am not familiar with the case law. I doubt you could pull up to the IRS payment office with truckloads of coins, maybe I am wrong. I get that if you owe a debt and the method of payment is not specified in the contract that you can try satisfy it with US currency. What I am not so sure about is whether you can try to pay with millions of pennys legal tender or not. Seems unreasonable to force the payee to dedicate significant resources to counting and bundling them. PS. I was not offering an opinion abut fine vs. debt. I was really wondering whether a fine really is a debt prior to a judgment. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-a-debt-with-coins/418784/13 "2007-09-11T16:31:42Z")
[QUOTE=askeptic] What I am not so sure about is whether you can try to pay with millions of pennys legal tender or not. Seems unreasonable to force the payee to dedicate significant resources to counting and bundling them. [/QUOTE] The cases (both of them! :D) seem to say that you can’t. > [@](#): > > PS. I was not offering an opinion abut fine vs. debt. I was really wondering whether a fine really is a debt prior to a judgment. I think the simple answer to that question, is that the concepts don’t fit together well. If you get fined, you pay or you appeal the fine. In some cases, you might need to pay the fine under protest or pay and sue for a refund. But if don’t contest it, you’ve got to pay it and it might never result in a judgment–criminal fines will, civil infractions are assessed. Even if you appeal the ticket (or whatever document imposes the fine), there might not be a judgment that explicitly says you’ve got to pay the fine. For example, if you get a speeding ticket, the issue for trial is whether you are responsible for speeding–not whether you owe the money. In some jurisdictions, that’s what the judgment will say. In other words, it’s complicated. ---
**Author:** ![eastvanguy1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/85e7bf/32.png) [@eastvanguy1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eastvanguy1)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-a-debt-with-coins/418784/14 "2014-05-29T00:28:09Z")
I attempted to pay a large (bullshit) skytrain fine in canadian $1 coins. They wont accept them as payment? Lady spouted some nonsense about not having to take coins. Is this legit? They are dollars ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-a-debt-with-coins/418784/15 "2014-05-29T00:54:28Z")
The lady is not spouting nonsense. Dollar coins are legal tender, but Canada’s _Currency Act_ sets limits on the size of debts for which you have to accept payment in coin payment. You can demand that they accept $1 coins in settlement of a debt of up to $25, but if the debt exceeds that amount they can decline to let you settle it in $1 coins. This approach is common. Lots of countries’ legal tender laws have provisions designed to prevent people settling debts with inconveniently large amounts of comparatively small-value coins. The point of legal tender legislation is to facilitate financial transactions, not to give people smart-arse ways of buggering them up. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-a-debt-with-coins/418784/16 "2014-05-29T01:09:29Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > There is a common misconception that “legal tender” means that it must be accepted. This is not the case. A merchant or seller may specify the type of payment that will be accepted… There are two problems with this. 1. Traffic court is not a “merchant” or a “seller”. Nobody _makes_ you shop at Valu-Rite or Ton-O-Food where they might or might not decide to set currency acceptance policies. You can’t just _refuse_ to do business with traffic court. Well I guess you can if you want to go to jail, but you get the point. It’s not a situation where you are free to look around. 2. Legal Tender does (and this is really the whole purpose _of_ the legal tender concept), mean that if a debt has been lawfully created, then the creditor may not reject a good faith payment in legal tender without seriously jeopardizing their ability to collect in court. Basically, the government doesn’t want something like this: Bank: “Please pay your mortgage please.” Debtor: “Here’s a check.” Bank: “We don’t take those anymore.” Debtor: “Ok, here’s a credit card.” Bank: “We don’t take that crap either.” Debtor: “Ok, here’s some cash.” Bank: “Our policy is that we only accept crisp, new-looking 100 dollar bills, no twenties, fifties, or anything crinkled.” …Time passes… Debtor: “I finally found some new, crisp 100’s, here you go.” Bank: “These are dated Series 2013, we now only accept bills dated between 1995 and 2003. Your are now gravely behind on your mortgage, please pay now or we will foreclose, you will lose your home, and a bad mark will be placed on your credit report.” ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-a-debt-with-coins/418784/17 "2014-05-29T01:17:18Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Earlier posters are actually talking about something different than the scenario in the OP. It is true that merchants don’t have to accept any particular form of payment but that is because you haven’t incured a debt with them. They simply refuse to sell you something at all. However, the situation in the OP is a debt and presenting coins for payment should fulfill the obligation to pay off the debt whether the clerk’s office likes it or not. That is where the phrase “all debts, public and private” would apply. > > Cecil’s cloumn implies the same thing. Bingo. If you walk into Best Buy and try to buy a stereo for a crate of nickels, they can tell you that they don’t want to sell you the stereo unless you offer some larger denominations of currency. If you _owe_ Best Buy some money, and you didn’t sign a contract agreeing that the debt had to be paid a certain way (e.g. certified check only, no bills above 20 or below 5, only Visa or Mastercard, etc.), then they can’t start adding those conditions on later and interfere with your ability to settle the debt. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-a-debt-with-coins/418784/18 "2014-05-29T02:18:41Z")
I realize this thread is going on seven years old, and I’m not sure if **askeptic** still posts here or not– **Gfactor** is still active, though. In light of the answers given and references supplied, especially by those two posters, what the heck _does_ “legal tender” mean (specifically in the context of U.S. law)? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-a-debt-with-coins/418784/19 "2014-05-29T02:34:55Z")
It means that, once a debt exists, it can be settle by payment in legal tender currency - i.e. the creditor cannot refuse to accept currency which is legal tender. It’s currently the case that legal tender in the US is unlimited - US currency is legal tender for all debts. But this doesn’t have to be the case; as already noted, other countries have limited legal tender provisions - Canadian dollar coins are legal tender for debts up to a certain amount. And in the past the US has had similar provisions; at one time, for example US silver coins were legal tender only for debts of up to $5. In euroland, euro coins and notes are legal tender, but coins are limited - nobody can be obliged to accept more than 50 euro coins in settlement of a debt. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-a-debt-with-coins/418784/20 "2014-05-29T03:01:41Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > In light of the answers given and references supplied, especially by those two posters, what the heck _does_ “legal tender” mean (specifically in the context of U.S. law)? That’s not a single context. EG if you had limited it to cash payments _to the federal court itself_, that may be more of a single context. But no matter, in summary, the principle of legal tender is that when you offer to pay with _legal tender_ then the person/institution had better accept it as payment of a DEBT. Note I say debt. If some shop puts up a sign saying “Euro only” then so be it, you have to pay in Euro because there was no debt at the time . The reason for the principle is so that the people who want the debt to be UNPAID… UNPAYABLE… don’t ignore payment of proper currency. Many jurisdictions have made – enacted - laws that returned the right to refuse payment when its made with TOO MANY COINS. Also those high value notes may be refusable too. But the thing is that law does not need to be acts of legislation… it can be common law… which means that a court has accepted and thus defined, that some amount of coins is too much… so _context_ varies with jurisdiction perhaps. Generally the restriction is on coins, but can be on high value notes. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-a-debt-with-coins/418784.md?page=2)