# Paying employees to vote. Legal... Ethical? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 1, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-employees-to-vote-legal-ethical/767389 "2016-10-01T18:00:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Casey1505](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dc4da7/32.png) [@Casey1505](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Casey1505)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-employees-to-vote-legal-ethical/767389/21 "2016-10-02T17:40:34Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > If they want to turn in a blank ballot, that’s fine. I just care that they show up. Is “just showing up” really voting? ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-employees-to-vote-legal-ethical/767389/22 "2016-10-02T17:57:02Z")
Stay open. Work the long day OR let others work some extra hours if they are so inclined. Let others take the 2 hours to vote that many states seem to entitle them to take. I don’t think it’s worth taking a haircut on your month’s profit. You’ll still be supportive, but there’s no need to close. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-employees-to-vote-legal-ethical/767389/23 "2016-10-02T17:57:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What law, specifically? Based on my reading of this legal [blog](http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/ebook/part3/campaign_getout02.html), actual pay for votes in federal elections is right out. There is, however, apparently a gray area about what constitutes inducement if it’s something like door prizes or small food freebies. The federal criminal [law](http://law.onecle.com/uscode/18/597.html) at play is (from the cites on that link above): [QUOTE=18 USC 597] Whoever makes or offers to make an expenditure to any person, either to vote or withhold his vote, or to vote for or against any candidate; and Whoever solicits, accepts, or receives any such expenditure in consideration of his vote or the withholding of his vote— Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; and if the violation was willful, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both. [/quote] ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-employees-to-vote-legal-ethical/767389/24 "2016-10-02T18:55:06Z")
> [@Casey1505](#): > > Is “just showing up” really voting? Yes. There is no way to tell what someone voted for. Showing up means that you wanted your voice to be heard. Showing up means that politicians have a reason to care about what you and your community have to say. Staying home means that no one cares what you have to say. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by 18 USC 597 > Whoever makes or offers to make an expenditure to any person, either to vote or withhold his vote, or to vote for or against any candidate; and > > Whoever solicits, accepts, or receives any such expenditure in consideration of his vote or the withholding of his vote— > > Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; and if the violation was willful, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both. Though that sounds kinda final there. I appreciate the cite. > [@](#): > > Stay open. Work the long day OR let others work some extra hours if they are so inclined. Let others take the 2 hours to vote that many states seem to entitle them to take. > > I don’t think it’s worth taking a haircut on your month’s profit. You’ll still be supportive, but there’s no need to close. I could, but I’ve gotten pretty lazy. I worked mostly 16-20 hour days the first couple of years, now that I have employees, I don’t want to anymore. I am pretty sure I will be closed, one way or the other. Ohio you get a “reasonable time” which I have no idea what reasonable is, but if they are gone for 8 hours because that’s how long the line is, it sounds reasonable to me. I guess I’ll just be closed, and figure out my budget then for how much I can pay them for the day off. I have a couple part timers that work only weekends, I would have paid them to vote if that were legal and ethical, but now, I suppose I have no reason to pay them at all, as they aren’t missing out on a day of work, so that saves a bit of money that could go towards those who are taking the day off. ---
**Author:** ![Casey1505](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dc4da7/32.png) [@Casey1505](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Casey1505)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-employees-to-vote-legal-ethical/767389/25 "2016-10-03T19:09:53Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Yes. There is no way to tell what someone voted for. Showing up means that you wanted your voice to be heard. Showing up means that politicians have a reason to care about what you and your community have to say. > > Staying home means that no one cares what you have to say. Respectfully, if someone just shows up to turn in a blank ballot, what have they really said? They’re ultimately just one less person that a candidate needs to convince. Their lack of vote neither helped nor hurt a particular candidate. I just don’t understand the point of a blank ballot is all. Writing in “Mickey Mouse” says more about how you feel about either candidate than just submitting a blank ballot. And since there are likely more than a few races being contested, blank submissions shout “Apathy” louder than words can. Just my two cents. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-employees-to-vote-legal-ethical/767389/26 "2016-10-03T22:18:38Z")
I would say you should not ask for proof, regardless of whether it’s legal, because you may have employees who are not able to vote legally (not citizens, or had their right to vote restricted due to a criminal conviction), and it seems unfair (whether or not its legal) to treat them differently. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-employees-to-vote-legal-ethical/767389/27 "2016-10-03T22:36:16Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > The federal criminal [law](http://law.onecle.com/uscode/18/597.html) at play is (from the cites on that link above): I was unable to find any case in which a person was prosecuted for paying someone to vote generally, rather than for a particular candidate or issue. But in any event, despite the thread title the OP is not proposing to pay anyone to vote. He is simply making election day a paid holiday for his employees. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-employees-to-vote-legal-ethical/767389/28 "2016-10-04T00:01:04Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I guess I’ll just be closed, and figure out my budget then for how much I can pay them for the day off. Many years ago I worked at a place that gave us eight federal holidays & two “floating” holidays, basically two ‘extra’ vacation days that you could use when you wanted, w/ manager approval. Then Martin Luther King holiday was created & we’re all, “Oh yeah, extra day off!!!”…until we realized they changed the schedule to be nine holidays & one “floater”. IOW, that nice weather day in June or July that I took off was now forced to be the third Monday in cold, dark January; not nearly as nice. If you want to give them an _extra_ paid day off, great, but **don’t** jigger them out of one vacation day next year to adjust. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-employees-to-vote-legal-ethical/767389/29 "2016-10-04T10:58:08Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Yes. There is no way to tell what someone voted for. I don’t know about the US but that’s not true for the UK. Because there’s a paper trail, it’s possible for votes to be checked in case of alleged fraud. It’s difficult, of course, but possible. ---
**Author:** ![howye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9adbd/32.png) [@howye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/howye)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-employees-to-vote-legal-ethical/767389/30 "2016-10-04T12:39:04Z")
It appears the original question is in reference to Ohio, which has open absentee voting by mail and in person absentee voting. Check your county board of elections, and it may be possible for most of your employees to vote early. I am looking at my county’s website and early in person voting begins on October 12, with weekend dates starting on the 29th. Personally, I worked for a GM subsidiary in 2004 that gave us the Veteran’s Day holiday on election day rather than Nov. 11. There was no requirement to actually vote or any encouragement to vote in any manner. But I believe it was a Tuesday instead of a Thursday off. Seemed like a very nice way to honor our veterans. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-employees-to-vote-legal-ethical/767389/31 "2016-10-04T13:15:10Z")
If I am reading the [California Elections Code](http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=elec&group=18001-19000&file=18520-18524) correctly, it is not against the law to reward someone just for voting; however, it is illegal to give, or receive, anything as a reward for (a) not voting, or (b) voting a particular way. A number of states require that employers give employees paid time off to vote, under certain conditions. California, for example, gives time off if it is otherwise impossible for the employee to vote, but (a) anything more than two hours off is unpaid, and (b) the employer can require that the time be taken at the beginning or end of the employee’s shift. There is also a “policy” for federal civil servants that they can leave work early (with pay) if they leave no earlier than three hours before polls close. I don’t see the problem with getting all of election day off with pay, as long as they don’t punish the people who don’t actually vote. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-employees-to-vote-legal-ethical/767389/32 "2016-10-04T13:15:43Z")
I wouldn’t require proof of voting, but maybe on the Monday before I’d have donuts in the breakroom (or some other relatively cheap treat), and print outs of information about where to vote and whatever other voter information, and maybe some non-partisan information like from the League of Women Voters on who’s on the ballot. Might be enough of an incentive/guilt trip to encourage a few more people to actually go vote. And it’s a little more hassle for you, but also you avoid the hassle of looking up if people went and voted. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-employees-to-vote-legal-ethical/767389/33 "2016-10-04T14:56:25Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I don’t know about the US but that’s not true for the UK. Because there’s a paper trail, it’s possible for votes to be checked in case of alleged fraud. It’s difficult, of course, but possible. I’m very surprised. If true, it would be a big flaw in the process. How do you vote in the UK, practically speaking? How would you figure out who voted for what? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-employees-to-vote-legal-ethical/767389/34 "2016-10-04T15:52:12Z")
> [@Casey1505](#): > > Respectfully, if someone just shows up to turn in a blank ballot, what have they really said? They’re ultimately just one less person that a candidate needs to convince. Their lack of vote neither helped nor hurt a particular candidate. I just don’t understand the point of a blank ballot is all. Writing in “Mickey Mouse” says more about how you feel about either candidate than just submitting a blank ballot. And since there are likely more than a few races being contested, blank submissions shout “Apathy” louder than words can. > > Just my two cents. They have said that it is worth their time to go to the polls. The politicians do not know that they turned in a blank ballot. The politicians only know that you took your time to express your opinion. It is one more person the candidate believes they have to convince. If they see at the end, that there were more voters than votes for a candidate, then the candidates (both winning and losing) know that they were not representing the interests of however many that happened to be, and would increase their efforts to reach out to these undecided voters. I never vote on uncontested races, in the hopes that someone will see a bunch of people not bothering to vote for uncontested incumbent, and make a try for giving voters a choice. Not voting on contested races still indicates that you are looking for more choices than currently offered. Do you really feel that showing up to the polls and turning in a blank ballot shouts apathy louder than not expressing your voice at all? Quartz: > [@](#): > > I don’t know about the US but that’s not true for the UK. Because there’s a paper trail, it’s possible for votes to be checked in case of alleged fraud. It’s difficult, of course, but possible. We have that here too, and I have wondered about it to some extent. When I get my ballot, it does correspond to a number in the voter registry attached to my name. I suppose that is used to remove fraudulent votes, but it could be used to track how anyone voted on a particular issue in theory. I assume that that would be highly illegal though, as the secrecy of the ballot is supposed to be pretty sacrosanct. So, theoretically, politicians might know how you voted, but they’d have to be pretty damn crooked to do so. (And have quite a few connections to other people willing to commit what I hope are pretty serious felonies in order to get somewhat better demographic information than you would just by polling.) > [@](#): > > t appears the original question is in reference to Ohio, which has open absentee voting by mail and in person absentee voting. Check your county board of elections, and it may be possible for most of your employees to vote early. I am looking at my county’s website and early in person voting begins on October 12, with weekend dates starting on the 29th. > > Personally, I worked for a GM subsidiary in 2004 that gave us the Veteran’s Day holiday on election day rather than Nov. 11. There was no requirement to actually vote or any encouragement to vote in any manner. But I believe it was a Tuesday instead of a Thursday off. Seemed like a very nice way to honor our veterans. Eh, I don’t like early voting. I have to go downtown, and spend 4 or 5 hours in line, rather than traveling to my polling place a couple hundred feet from my front door that never has a line. Many of my employees live in a different county though, where the county seat is much closer and has lower population, so the lines may be shorter for them, and the drive is definitely. But, they already requested the day off, it may be a bit rude of me to tell them to vote on a different day. > [@](#): > > If you want to give them an extra paid day off, great, but don’t jigger them out of one vacation day next year to adjust. This will actually be the first time I’ve run a paid day off. They get paid vacation, but that is taken on their own time. So, this question is purely academic, I don’t think it is ethical, and I would not do it, but would it be legal to fire someone because they didn’t vote, assuming they were able to? Obviously, can’t fire someone for how they voted, and can’t fire someone for voting, but it did not seem there was any protection for not voting. But, as you can fire someone for not saying the pledge or standing for the national anthem, or even for vocally supporting a candidate, I wonder if someone can be let go for not expressing their opinion at the voting booth? ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-employees-to-vote-legal-ethical/767389/35 "2016-10-07T21:16:02Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > I have worked for two companies that did pay us to vote in federal elections. In one case, we were told to vote first, then work a half day after,\*\* showing the “I Voted” sticker when we came in. \*\* > > I don’t see the problem. bolding mine I see that requirement as a problem. I’ve voted in every election since 94 or so and only got an I voted sticker once, that being during this year’s presidential primary. Even in this year’s local primary months later, no sticker. I don’t care about the sticker, but no one should use its presence or not as a real indicator of anything. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-employees-to-vote-legal-ethical/767389/36 "2016-10-07T22:13:05Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > bolding mine > > I see that requirement as a problem. I’ve voted in every election since 94 or so and only got an I voted sticker once, that being during this year’s presidential primary. Even in this year’s local primary months later, no sticker. I don’t care about the sticker, but no one should use its presence or not as a real indicator of anything. The stickers are pretty ubiquitous around here. I once had an election worker run a few steps after me, to give me one. But I suspect that showing up to work without it, and simply affirming that I had voted, wouldn’t have been a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-employees-to-vote-legal-ethical/767389/37 "2016-10-07T22:27:41Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > This whole thing started when I found that 5 of my employees were all requesting the day off, because they wanted to make sure they got a chance to vote, and to make sure that their friends got out to vote. With that many off, it would be difficult to stay open, not impossible, but it would mean a 16 hour day for me, and I would not get a chance to vote myself. > > So I figured that it would be easiest to just be closed for the day. Now, usually if I am closed for a holiday, we are really busy around that day, so it is easy for people to still get their hours, and they are happy to get the day off. In this case, that week is nothing particular special, so it would be likely that most of my employees would not be able to make up their hours and have a short paycheck. > > This is where I decided that it would be a good gesture for me to pay them for the day off. Now, being closed, and paying them for the day, wipes out the majority of a month’s profit for me, this comes out of my own pocket. Not that I begrudge this at all, but I would like to see them spend their time productively, if at all possible. Let half the employees take the morning off with pay and the other half take the afternoon off with pay. Cuts the paid vacation time in half, and let’s you stay open. Half a day is plenty of time to vote. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-employees-to-vote-legal-ethical/767389/38 "2016-10-07T22:58:27Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I’m very surprised. If true, it would be a big flaw in the process. How do you vote in the UK, practically speaking? How would you figure out who voted for what? It’s not a flaw; it’s a security check against fraud. When we vote we get handed a form. That form has a number on it. That number can be linked to the individual voter, with effort. There is a manual stage or two in between, which I do not recall in sufficient detail to relate, and it is those manual stages which make it difficult. It is deliberately not computerised - in theory you could do away with the count by just OCRing all the completed forms but that would enable the link between voter and form to be easily made and thus it would no longer be a secret ballot. ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2016, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-employees-to-vote-legal-ethical/767389/39 "2016-10-08T00:20:01Z")
The federal government gives employees two hours of admin leave to vote - at least in some agencies. They should file charges against themselves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-employees-to-vote-legal-ethical/767389.md?page=1)