# Paying for a hit on a dead person **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 16, 2013, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-a-hit-on-a-dead-person/655834 "2013-04-16T13:45:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![whc.03grady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a6a055/32.png) [@whc.03grady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whc.03grady)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-a-hit-on-a-dead-person/655834/1 "2013-04-16T13:45:27Z")
Hypothetical. It’s 2.30 and I just dropped off my wife at the mall. Apropos nothing, at 2.45 I decide to have my wife killed, so I make some calls and drive to meet a guy to arrange the details. Our conversation begins at 3 and ends at 3.15 with his arresting me (he was an undercover cop, see?). Unbeknownst to me, at 2.32 my wife died in the mall as a result of an undiagnosed heart condition. Can I be charged with soliciting a murder of someone who’s dead? Change the example. The year is 2013. Instead of my wife, I’m trying to find someone who’ll off Ronald Reagan, whom I don’t know is dead (make up for yourself why this is, just don’t make me crazy in so doing). Can I be charged? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-a-hit-on-a-dead-person/655834/2 "2013-04-16T13:52:12Z")
IANAL, but how about “[conspiracy to commit murder](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1117)?” ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-a-hit-on-a-dead-person/655834/3 "2013-04-16T14:03:59Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > IANAL, but how about “[conspiracy to commit murder](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1117)?” +1 ---
**Author:** ![whc.03grady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a6a055/32.png) [@whc.03grady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whc.03grady)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-a-hit-on-a-dead-person/655834/4 "2013-04-16T14:04:35Z")
I should clean up my question. Of course I can be _charged_ in either case. I can be _charged_ with anything. The real question is, in either case is the fact that the person was dead gonna help me in court? ---
**Author:** ![whc.03grady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a6a055/32.png) [@whc.03grady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whc.03grady)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-a-hit-on-a-dead-person/655834/5 "2013-04-16T14:06:12Z")
Yeah, conspiracy to commit murder. Doesn’t someone have to be alive for me to conspire to murder them? Is it conspiracy to commit murder if I put a hit out on Hawkeye Pierce from M_A_S\*H? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-a-hit-on-a-dead-person/655834/6 "2013-04-16T14:10:11Z")
Doesn’t conspiracy require an overt act? The OP just talked to the cop. Until he buys a gun or otherwise takes another action, I don’t see conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-a-hit-on-a-dead-person/655834/7 "2013-04-16T14:16:47Z")
Let’s assume the cop knows not to effect an arrest until the overt act requirement is satisfied; he doesn’t haul out the bracelets until you pass over the cash. Conspiracy is then complete. And if you’re interested – suppose you’re more of a do-it-yourself guy. So you take your hunting rifle up to Nordstrom’s, hide in the Yves St Laurent sweater section, and sight your scope on your wife across the way in Starbucks. You shoot, hitting her head, in what would be a kill shot except for the fact that her heart condition killed her ten minutes prior. You’re guilty of another inchoate crime: attempted murder. ---
**Author:** ![whc.03grady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a6a055/32.png) [@whc.03grady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whc.03grady)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-a-hit-on-a-dead-person/655834/8 "2013-04-16T14:17:59Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-a-hit-on-a-dead-person/655834/9 "2013-04-16T15:03:24Z")
In Ankh Morpork, Patrician Vetinari has decreed that anyone who assaults someone else so badly that the victim needs medical treatment by an Igor to survive will be found guilty of Murder. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-a-hit-on-a-dead-person/655834/10 "2013-04-16T15:09:36Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > In Ankh Morpork, Patrician Vetinari has decreed that anyone who assaults someone else so badly that the victim needs medical treatment by an Igor to survive will be found guilty of Murder. Colorless green worms sleep furiously. That’s how I read that post. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-a-hit-on-a-dead-person/655834/11 "2013-04-16T15:09:42Z")
[Impossibility defense](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impossibility_defense) > [@](#): > > In United States v. Thomas[5] the court held that men who believed they were raping a drunken, unconscious woman were guilty of attempted rape, even though the woman was actually dead at the time sexual intercourse took place.[1][6] ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-a-hit-on-a-dead-person/655834/12 "2013-04-16T15:34:19Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > In Ankh Morpork, Patrician Vetinari has decreed that anyone who assaults someone else so badly that the victim needs medical treatment by an Igor to survive will be found guilty of Murder. I’m confused. What does that have to do with this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-a-hit-on-a-dead-person/655834/13 "2013-04-16T15:52:54Z")
It means that Ranger Jeff has escaped from the Watch. The populace should be warned: he is armed and has good taste in literature (in this case, Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series). ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-a-hit-on-a-dead-person/655834/14 "2013-04-16T16:02:26Z")
Under UK law, the crime of [conspiracy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(crime)#Statutory_offence) is just defined to be when people agree to pursue a course of action that would result in a crime. (It’s a one-size-fits-all kind of thing — things like “conspiracy to murder”, “conspiracy to defraud”, etc. aren’t separate crimes.) Notably, the law specifically says that even if you didn’t know the crime was impossible to commit in the manner you planned, you’re still guilty of conspiracy (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > …if a person agrees with any other person or persons that a course of conduct shall be pursued which, if the agreement is carried out in accordance with their intentions, either –[list=a] > [li]will necessarily amount to or involve the commission of any offence or offences by one or more of the parties to the agreement, or[/li][li] **would do so but for the existence of facts which render the commission of the offence or any of the offences impossible,** [added by S.5 Criminal Attempts Act 1981] [/list][/li]he is guilty of conspiracy to commit the offence or offences in question. (I remember this from discussions about the [liquid bomb plot](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_transatlantic_aircraft_plot) a few years back. It wasn’t really clear whether the plan to manufacture explosives in flight would have actually worked, but that question was immaterial to whether the plotters were guilty of conspiracy.) ---
**Author:** ![Archaic\_Entity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@Archaic\_Entity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Archaic_Entity)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-a-hit-on-a-dead-person/655834/15 "2013-04-16T16:06:30Z")
> [@MikeS](#): > > Under UK law, the crime of [conspiracy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(crime)#Statutory_offence) is just defined to be when people agree to pursue a course of action that would result in a crime. (It’s a one-size-fits-all kind of thing — things like “conspiracy to murder”, “conspiracy to defraud”, etc. aren’t separate crimes.) Notably, the law specifically says that even if you didn’t know the crime was impossible to commit in the manner you planned, you’re still guilty of conspiracy (bolding mine):(I remember this from discussions about the [liquid bomb plot](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_transatlantic_aircraft_plot) a few years back. It wasn’t really clear whether the plan to manufacture explosives in flight would have actually worked, but that question was immaterial to whether the plotters were guilty of conspiracy.) That is pretty much how I would read it. Your intent was based upon your knowledge at-hand, therefore the conspiracy to commit murder was real. You would be arrested and charged. As prosecution, the testimony of the cop doing the deal with you, as well as your admission that you wanted her dead should be enough. You may honestly be able to get the fact that she was dead at the time omitted from the case, due to the fact that it wasn’t relevant at the time of the transaction. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-a-hit-on-a-dead-person/655834/16 "2013-04-16T16:15:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Let’s assume the cop knows not to effect an arrest until the overt act requirement is satisfied; he doesn’t haul out the bracelets until you pass over the cash. > > Conspiracy is then complete. > > And if you’re interested – suppose you’re more of a do-it-yourself guy. So you take your hunting rifle up to Nordstrom’s, hide in the Yves St Laurent sweater section, and sight your scope on your wife across the way in Starbucks. You shoot, hitting her head, in what would be a kill shot except for the fact that her heart condition killed her ten minutes prior. > > You’re guilty of another inchoate crime: attempted murder. Or another example. You take your gun and shoot somebody in the heart. Unbeknownst to you, the person is wearing a bulletproof vest. So it was impossible for you to kill the person with the act you committed. But any reasonable jury is going to say that your intent was to commit murder and that you had reason to believe your act would result in murder. Same thing with the OP. You’re trying to have your wife killed. Two things unknown to you prevent you from succeeding; your wife is already dead and the hitman you’re hiring is actually an undercover policeman. As for the overt act, hiring somebody you believe is a hitman would qualify. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-a-hit-on-a-dead-person/655834/17 "2013-04-16T16:20:54Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I’m confused. What does that have to do with this thread? The OP posited a situation where someone is charged with murder for attempting to murder someone who is already dead. I offered a contrary situation where someone would be charged with murder where the victim is still alive. So, someone is charged with murder for killing a dead person or for not killing someone. I respectfully submit that although my comment was on a tangent, it was not a complete non-sequitur. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-a-hit-on-a-dead-person/655834/18 "2013-04-16T16:44:26Z")
When the thread is about how things work in the real world and you make a comment about a fictional world, it’s a _complete_ non sequitur. ---
**Author:** ![whc.03grady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a6a055/32.png) [@whc.03grady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whc.03grady)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-a-hit-on-a-dead-person/655834/19 "2013-04-16T16:46:40Z")
What if the impossibility arises not from the fact that the person is dead, but from the fact that they don’t (and never did) exist? Can I get convicted for trying to set up a hit on Harry Potter? Assume that I’m not crazy, I just don’t realize HP isn’t real. ---
**Author:** ![Taomist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@Taomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taomist)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-a-hit-on-a-dead-person/655834/20 "2013-04-16T17:29:44Z")
I wonder if it’d be attempted murder if you tried to kill, say, Reginald Shoe? He’s already dead! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-a-hit-on-a-dead-person/655834.md?page=2)