# Paying for Government Services **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 4, 2015, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-government-services/721613 "2015-06-04T06:02:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-government-services/721613/21 "2015-06-05T07:21:16Z")
> [@Jormungandr](#): > > Last week, I drove a friend to get a copy of his birth certificate for his passport application. He had to pay about $20 for it. On the drive back, he wonder why it cost him anything. His taxes already paid for the person to already work there and processing birth certificates and other documents are part of his job. He also mentioned how his wife had to pay have her fingerprints processed for a criminal background check. “It’s that person’s job already to check fingerprints. Why should she have to pay more than our taxes that pay his salary already?” To him, it was equivalent to the police charging a fee to a store owner for arresting a shoplifter or robber. So, what is the justification for additional government fees? Your assumption that these services have already been paid for is incorrect. The government estimates how much the services will be used and sets its fees for the service. If the government was providing these services for free, other taxes would have to be raised to replace the fees. And the general public usually supports the idea of the people using the service paying a fee for the service, just as would happen in a private business. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-government-services/721613/22 "2015-06-05T07:24:11Z")
> [@TwoCarrotSnowman](#): > > Government officials get to arbitrarily make up their own pricing on the fly? No, but a government official has some leeway in how they interpret the rules. So if the rule says a notarization costs fifty dollars, the official can decide whether an eight page packet is one notarization repeated eight times or eight separate notarizations. ---
**Author:** ![Jormungandr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@Jormungandr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jormungandr)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-government-services/721613/23 "2015-06-05T07:27:02Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > Something else to think about. Think about all the people that need copies of vital records. It costs money for that labor, the paper, wear and tear on the machines. Either they can charge the people who actually need the copies or they can charge everyone else in the form of higher (property) taxes. If you never lose your birth certificate or need a background check, do you really want to pay for the people that need copies of theirs? Just some ideas, not my opinion, but I think some people might want to know exactly how much that paper costs and if it could bought cheaper, how the fees are split by government and why should people be charged for items the government is required to have in possession(they’re required to keep birth certificate records and should budget for it)? > [@](#): > > One that does bother me, though, is that in my city I have to pay for sidewalk that gets replaced in front of my house. I understand it’s about $100 per section. Now, I wouldn’t have a problem if they charged me for cracked sections in front of my driveway. My Honda isn’t going to break them as often as my neighbor’s Dodge Ram 2500, so that would make sense. But no one is cracking concrete just by walking on it. I could also understand if if they could show that it was due to trees planted on my property (on my side of the sidewalk). But with a few exceptions, if it’s in front of your house, you foot the bill. There’s a house a few blocks away from me, on an outside corner with a crack through every block. I counted 22 blocks. That’s going to be an expensive bill. It’s something that I always figure I should keep in mind when buying a house. Ask for a discount if you know the city is going to be doing sidewalk repairs soon (or rather, ask for cash). If I was moving into that house, I’d be asking for $2500 check from the current homeowners as part of the deal. [L.A. to consider shifting responsibility for sidewalks to landowners](http://www.latimes.com/local/cityhall/la-me-sidewalks-20150527-story.html) [Repairs Begin on Buckled Sidewalk in South LA](http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/repair-sidewalk-concrete-south-los-angeles-geneva-james-parks-283095591.html) “By using a private contractor instead of city crews, [City Councilman Benard] l Parks said he’s able to repair more sidewalks in his district for less money.” ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-government-services/721613/24 "2015-06-05T13:36:06Z")
> [@Jormungandr](#): > > Just some ideas, not my opinion, but I think some people might want to know exactly how much that paper costs and if it could bought cheaper, how the fees are split by government and why should people be charged for items the government is required to have in possession(they’re required to keep birth certificate records and should budget for it)? First, as has been said above, user fees keep taxes lower than they would be without fees. Second, saying people are “charged for items the government is required to have in possession” is not really accurate. I know of nowhere that charges a fee for filing a birth certificate or death certificate ( which is the information the government is required to maintain). People are charged for a _copy_ of that record, in exactly the same way a college charges for _copies_ of transcripts or a hospital charges for _copies_ of your medical records or court reporters charge individuals for a \*copy \*of a transcript. Taxes, tuition, and medical bills pay to maintain the records- user fees pay for them to be copied. And the fact that fees exist probably keeps the number of copies made way down- I might get a college transcript every semester if there was no fee, or a copy of my medical record after every appointment, or not bother looking for my birth certificate when I need it. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-government-services/721613/25 "2015-06-05T13:51:05Z")
> [@Jormungandr](#): > > Just some ideas, not my opinion, but I think some people might want to know exactly how much that paper costs and if it could bought cheaper, how the fees are split by government and why should people be charged for items the government is required to have in possession(they’re required to keep birth certificate records and should budget for it)? If your friend is truly concerned about this, he could write to an elected official for whatever level of government this is - city, county, state - and ask to have an explaination of the budget for that public records office. That would be easy to provide. I can almost guarantee you that the budget will show that the office requires $2 million (or whatever) to pay salaries, stock supplies, keep the lights on, etc., of which so much is provided by an appropriation from the government, and the remainder is provided through fees. How that specifically breaks out for this particular office I have no idea of course, but this is very easy information to come by. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-government-services/721613/26 "2015-06-05T15:37:34Z")
The government is gonna get theirs. Whether it be by taxes, fees, etc. This is why there is very little motivation by the government to reign themselves in. And why government has massively grown in size over the last several decades. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-government-services/721613/27 "2015-09-01T14:43:04Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Makes me think of getting extra pages in my passport. Used to be you could waltz into any US Embassy, say, “Extra pages, please,” and walk out with your now-fatter passport in a matter of minutes at no charge. Now there’s a fee for extra pages, and the fee isn’t too far off from just paying for a new passport. UPDATE: I received this message tonight from the US Embassy: \*\*The U.S. Embassy in Bangkok and the U.S. Consulate General in Chiang Mai inform U.S. citizens that · After December 31, 2015, the Department of State will no longer add extra visa pages to U.S. passports. · U.S. citizens applying for passports outside of the United States will receive 52-page passport books. The 52-page passport book will cost the same as 28-page passport book would. · Renew your passport early to make sure you have enough blank pages for visa stamps from other countries. Some countries require two blank pages for their entry and exit stamps.\*\* ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-government-services/721613/28 "2015-09-01T16:34:42Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Makes me think of getting extra pages in my passport. Used to be you could waltz into any US Embassy, say, “Extra pages, please,” and walk out with your now-fatter passport in a matter of minutes at no charge. Now there’s a fee for extra pages, and the fee isn’t too far off from just paying for a new passport. Although, when you apply for the passport, you can request one with twice as many pages for the same cost. Seems silly to do otherwise. I think a blend of taxes and fees is actually a good way to handle most government services. The tax is there because the government is often providing for a more general public good. The fee is there to make sure that it’s only people who actually want the service enough get it done. Bridge tolls are a great example. There’s a public good that’s served by infrastructure like a bridge. Everyone benefits when transportation networks are efficient. But there’s also a benefit that’s concentrated on the people who regularly use the bridge. A mix of tax and fees means that everyone pays a little (and receives a small benefit), and the people who receive the biggest benefit pay more. There are also cases (emergency services come to mind) where I don’t think fees are appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-government-services/721613/29 "2015-09-01T18:22:41Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Presumably, you drove on public roads – a gift to you & him from all the non-car-owing citizens who paid taxes for those roads. Would you rather have the roads paid for only by people who drive on them? Then be prepared for your gas taxes to triple or so. (Here in Minnesota, gas taxes cover only 1/3 of the cost – the rest comes from the general fund.) > … we have decided that a transportation system in our country (roads, railroads, airports, navigable rivers, etc.) is a public good Yes - and a significant part of the reason is that it benefits pretty much everyone - by no means just those who own cars. Those non-owners presumably consume goods delivered by truck, ride in cars & buses, are carried in ambulances when sick, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-government-services/721613/30 "2015-09-01T18:36:04Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > … if the rule says a notarization costs fifty dollars, the official can decide whether an eight page packet is one notarization repeated eight times or eight separate notarizations. “I summarily fine you $350 for what I consider rudeness - and offer you no chance to contest this” is clearly an abuse, for which the official should probably be fired. There’s close to zero chance that an employee of a private company would still be employed after such a performance. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-government-services/721613/31 "2015-09-01T19:24:13Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > like some jackass who gets his kick by demanding a new copy of his birth certificate every day. This could easily be solved by providing only one free copy per year, or 5 years etc. And how many people would do this in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-government-services/721613/32 "2015-09-01T20:02:41Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > “I summarily fine you $350 for what I consider rudeness - and offer you no chance to contest this” is clearly an abuse, for which the official should probably be fired. There’s close to zero chance that an employee of a private company would still be employed after such a performance. Nonsense. Private companies have the right to refuse customers who are behaving rudely. Employees of governments agencies have to serve everyone and they will do so. But anyone who walks in with an “I pay your salary so you’d better grovel” attitude will get the full bureaucrat treatment. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-government-services/721613/33 "2015-09-01T20:19:15Z")
> [@grude](#): > > And how many people would do this in the first place? I take it you’ve never worked with the public. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-government-services/721613/34 "2015-09-01T21:02:19Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Private companies have the right to refuse customers who are behaving rudely. Indeed. My contention is that employees of those companies are rarely authorized to impose arbitrary additional charges in cases where they perceive a customer’s question as rude. > [@](#): > > anyone who walks in with an “I pay your salary so you’d better grovel” attitude will get the full bureaucrat treatment. There’s no evidence that the case in question involved this attitude. And I question the validity of a $350 surcharge even in a case that did. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-government-services/721613/35 "2015-09-03T02:33:32Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > Although, when you apply for the passport, you can request one with twice as many pages for the same cost. > > Seems silly to do otherwise. I’ve always done so ever since the option was offered, but the option has not always been offered. The period where I loaded up on extra pages twice, I don’t remember if they had started offering the double size yet, but if they did, then I had it and still had to get extra pages. I traveled a lot at the time. Now of course, as per the new announcement, there is no choice. A passport issued to me abroad will now automatically be the larger size. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-government-services/721613/36 "2015-09-03T15:49:59Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > … > There are also cases (emergency services come to mind) where I don’t think fees are appropriate. _Thank you for dialing 9-1-1. To be connected to an emergency operator please enter your sixteen digit credit card number followed by the # key._ Yeah. Doesn’t work. But I have no problem with a pay for additional service for non-emergency situations. Some police departments start [charging a fee](http://www.seattle.gov/police/programs/alarms/) for multiple responses to a false burglar alarm. Typically an escalating fee is charged after the first two or three responses in a year. The fee is not so much about raising funds but rather to encourage owners to maintain their alarm systems. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-government-services/721613/37 "2015-09-03T19:11:10Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > Typically an escalating fee is charged after the first two or three responses in a year. The fee is not so much about raising funds but rather to encourage owners to maintain their alarm systems. This makes all sorts of sense - provided it’s announced in advance and not made up on the spot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-for-government-services/721613.md?page=1)