# Paying with rolls of coins **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 9, 2000, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-with-rolls-of-coins/7841 "2000-02-09T01:12:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-with-rolls-of-coins/7841/21 "2000-02-10T06:55:00Z")
> [@](#): > > This hasn’t been challenged, but I think there IS a legality! Paying with $50 or bigger may not be preferred at some stores, but it does say “legal tender for all debts public and private”. How can stores set restrictions beyond what the US Treasury says? I thought they actually ARE obligated to accept US bills. But again, it might not always be practical to break a $1,000 bill, right? This depends on the meaning of the phrase “legal tender”. As I noted in the prior thread referenced above, it doesn’t always mean “all persons must accept this in payment of a debt.” It started out that way, in order to give people confidence in coinage so that they would use it. Now, it often means something more like: “this bill/coin is a valid means of payment, assuming that the parties agree to accept it.” In other words, American coins may be ‘legal tender’ in the US, but Mexican coins may not be. As Cecil notes, no one knows quite WHAT it all means. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2000, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-with-rolls-of-coins/7841/22 "2000-02-09T19:25:00Z")
> [@](#): > > I barely recall a case where a man paid a large tax debt (something like $2,000) in pennies, because he disagreed with the tax. I believe Larry Flynt did something similar in paying off a court-imposed “obscenity” fine. With scantily-clad models carrying the coins. As far as businesses being able to refuse coins or large bills or what have you, it was explained to me thusly: Coins and bills are legal tender, valid for payment of all debts, public or private. The question is, what is a “debt”? Taxes, fines, fees and other government imposed costs for services are “debts,” and so are payable in any legal tender. If you try to pay a parking ticket in pennies and are refused by the clerk, you have discharged this debt and are no longer responsible for it. Certain private transactions, including loans, mortgages and credit cards, are private debts. If you try to make a mortgage payment in coin and it’s refused, you’ve discharged that portion of the debt. Buying a grapefruit or some smokes or an oil painting is not a “debt.” It’s a sale. The owner of the grapefruit or smokes or painting, by refusing to accept coins, is not refusing payment. He’s refusing to make the sale. Perfectly legal, and you can’t then walk out of the store with your grapefruit because you haven’t paid for it. ---
**Author:** ![aha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eada6e/32.png) [@aha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aha)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2000, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-with-rolls-of-coins/7841/23 "2000-02-09T20:32:00Z")
Thanks Otto. 🙂 * * * “I think it speaks to the duality of man sir.” (private Joker in Full Metal Jacket) ---
**Author:** ![eden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5f9b8f/32.png) [@eden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eden)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2000, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-with-rolls-of-coins/7841/24 "2000-02-09T20:48:00Z")
I think the biggest deterrent to paying large sums in rolled coins is that they are VERY heavy. I just took about $300 to the bank in rolled coins (granted, not all were quarters) and could barely carry the bag in. The kid paying for his Playstation with about a hundred and twenty bucks of loose coins must have been pretty butch. ---
**Author:** ![TheThill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheThill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheThill)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2000, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-with-rolls-of-coins/7841/25 "2000-02-09T22:33:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by RussellM: > \*\* > During 2002 and 2003, a single currency will start to appear across Europe (but not the UK as things currently stand). In theory, the ecu already exists and it is possible to conduct trade in ecus among the EMU member states, but there are still no notes in circulation. Things can only get more confused. > \*\* To be more precise, the European currency has been called the “euro” since the beginning of 1999, and is now the actual official currency in all European Union countries except for the U.K., Greece, Sweden and Denmark. The individual paper and coin money(German mark, Italian lira, etc.) are still used within each country as a sort of “mask” for the euro, although each one has a fixed exchange rate with the euro (e.g. 1 euro= DM 1.95583). Beginning 1 January 2002, the national currencies will fully be phased out, and euro coins and notes will be phased in all 11 euro countries (and by that time it could be more than 11). The bills will all be the same, but each country will put different coins into circulation, but they will circulate throughout all participating countries. Currently an ever increasing number of bills and receipts have an added line stating the price in euro for people to get used to. Same for bank statements, etc. But alas, it would seem that the British (and not the Irish, aha)are going to cling to the pound, at least until they realize that it can be quite a disadvantage to future trade, and just make things rather difficult for them. It would also eliminate the problem with the Scottish money. A strange thing anyway, especially because several Scottish banks all print different (!) banknotes. Btw, aha, I think you got ripped off rather badly. 30 dollars on the hundred? 3 is more usual, though still not quite inexpensive. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-with-rolls-of-coins/7841/26 "2000-02-10T01:59:00Z")
Funny that the uppity French would agree to give up their cherished Franc, but that the British would hold on to the Pound. I mean, at least the word “franc” doesn’t also mean a unit of weight! (Although it **is** a short term for a hot dog in the U.S…) ---
**Author:** ![Studi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Studi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Studi)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-with-rolls-of-coins/7841/27 "2000-02-10T03:10:00Z")
Nickels? Quarters? Pennies are the only way to make large purchases! Studi * * * When I grow up, I want to be the Minister of Silly Walks. ---
**Author:** ![aha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eada6e/32.png) [@aha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aha)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-with-rolls-of-coins/7841/28 "2000-02-10T04:02:00Z")
Btw, aha, I think you got ripped off rather badly. 30 dollars on the hundred? 3 is more usual, though still not quite inexpensive. ## Sorry thill I probably overstated that figure. I remember going to the bank in the airport in Shannon upon arrival and trading 200.00 US for 180.00 Irish pounds. Then on the ship across the Irish sea? We were even more vulnerable changing to English pounds because shipboard was the only place to make an exchange. I think it was there that we lost 30.00 on the 200.00 “I think it speaks to the duality of man sir.” (private Joker in Full Metal Jacket) ---
**Author:** ![TheThill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheThill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheThill)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-with-rolls-of-coins/7841/29 "2000-02-10T23:35:00Z")
Yes, anything aboard a ship is bound to be more expensive. Another tip now when in the eurozone (the participating 11 countries and not Britain)is to change from one euro-currency to another (francs, marks, liras, pesetas, etc.) at offical state banks for a fee of – 0.00. Of course, it might take some time to hunt these banks down (internet search), and you can only change from a foreign eurozone currency into the local one, but it saves some money. If you’ve got the time, that is. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2000, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-with-rolls-of-coins/7841/30 "2000-02-11T19:28:00Z")
From Otto: > [@](#): > > it was explained to me thusly: Coins and bills are legal tender, valid for payment of all debts, public or private. The question is, what is a “debt”? Taxes, fines, fees and other government imposed costs for services are “debts,” and so are payable in any legal tender. If you try to pay a parking ticket in pennies and are refused by the clerk, you have discharged this debt and are no longer responsible for it. Certain private transactions, including loans, mortgages and credit cards, are private debts. If you try to make a mortgage payment in coin and it’s refused, you’ve discharged that portion of the debt. Buying a grapefruit or some smokes or an oil painting is not a “debt.” It’s a sale. The owner of the grapefruit or smokes or painting, by refusing to accept coins, is not refusing payment. He’s refusing to make the sale. Perfectly legal, and you can’t then walk out of the store with your grapefruit because you haven’t paid for it. Nice try, wrong answer. 🙂 As noted in the various links I have noted before, the issue of legal tender is complicated, but at the most basic level, legal tender is coin which MUST be accepted by anyone as payment of an obligation. Obligations include contracts of sale: the seller’s consideration under the contract is the tender of goods to the buyer; the buyer’s considerataion is the tender of money to the seller. This is as much a ‘debt’ as any other contractural or otherwise legally imposed monetary obligation. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2000, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-with-rolls-of-coins/7841/31 "2000-02-11T20:25:00Z")
> [@](#): > > As noted in the various links I have noted before, the issue of legal tender is complicated, but at the most basic level, legal tender is coin which MUST be accepted by anyone as payment of an obligation. It strikes me that there is probably a legal difference between a “debt” and an “obligation,” but then what do I know? > [@](#): > > Obligations include contracts of sale: the seller’s consideration under the contract is the tender of goods to the buyer; the buyer’s considerataion is the tender of money to the seller. This is as much a ‘debt’ as any other contractural or otherwise legally imposed monetary obligation. Oh well, if it’s contract law we be talkin’ my argument would be that one of the terms of the contract is agreement between the parties on method of payment. If you agree to pay me in stock options and then try to pay me in postage stamps, you’ve violated the contract. Putting a sign up that states “no bills larger than $20 accepted” is a term of the contract for any transaction at that business. If someone shops there, I as the business owner would argue that they have consented to that provision of the contract and if they try to pay with a c-note they are violating the terms. I would further argue that refusing to accept payment for a major purchase in coins would constitute a failure in the “meeting of the minds” and thus the contract (to sell the item) was void. This would probably be less than spectacularly successful, especially with a written contract as opposed to the oral or implied contract of the overwhelming majority of transactions, but hey, ya throw in every argument you can think of and let the judge or jury sort it out, right? ---
**Author:** ![TheThill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheThill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheThill)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2000, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-with-rolls-of-coins/7841/32 "2000-02-12T21:21:00Z")
Actually, I always thought it was a bit silly for shopkeepers to turn away customers with so much money that they choose to pay with $100 and $50 bills. Or any customers for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2000, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-with-rolls-of-coins/7841/33 "2000-02-13T02:31:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Actually, I always thought it was a bit silly for shopkeepers to turn away customers with so much money that they choose to pay with $100 and $50 bills. So what does the shopkeeper do on Sunday when the banks are closed and she’s used all of her 20s, 10s, 5s and 1s making change for 50s and 100s? ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2000, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-with-rolls-of-coins/7841/34 "2000-02-14T16:32:00Z")
Otto, if you really want me to pull out the Restatement of the Law on Contracts and address your contract law questions, let me know (I don’t even know if I kept the damn thing; it’s three volumes of small type). Let’s just say that your understanding of the technicalities of contract law is typically limited (typical for someone who hasn’t studied contract law, that is). Addressing the issue of what the parties contract for, the whole point to legal tender when the concept was initiated was that parties COULDN’T contract NOT to accept it in payment. It is this concept that has eroded over time. Now, statutorily in some states, you still MUST accept a certain amount of coinage in payment of contracts, including sales contracts. See, e.g., Missouri. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Cooper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Cooper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cooper)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2000, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-with-rolls-of-coins/7841/35 "2000-02-14T19:38:00Z")
DS - but you can refuse to make a sale for any reason you choose, can’t you? When do you give up the freedom to enter or not enter the contract? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2000, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-with-rolls-of-coins/7841/36 "2000-02-14T21:19:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Otto, if you really want me to pull out the Restatement of the Law on Contracts and address your contract law questions, let me know (I don’t even know if I kept the damn thing; it’s three volumes of small type). Let’s just say that your understanding of the technicalities of contract law is typically limited (typical for someone who hasn’t studied contract law, that is). Have I been insulted? The blade was so sharp I’m not sure if it went between my ribs or not. \ I’m actually going to be starting in on basic contract law this Thursday (right after the test on torts. Ugh.) so at the appropriate moment I’ll spring it on my prof and watch his head explode. ---
**Author:** ![ignatiusjreilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@ignatiusjreilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ignatiusjreilly)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2000, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-with-rolls-of-coins/7841/37 "2000-02-14T22:16:00Z")
Ahhh, contract law! I know something about the subject, but admittedly not as much as certain other people in here. To answer **Cooper’s** question - there is some legal debate as to what constitutes offer, acceptance, and consideration in the case of a retail store (advertisements? price tags? Is it tacit?), so if a merchant chooses not to accept certain forms of payment, there’s probably not a lot you can do to challenge him. It’s fuzzy. ---
**Author:** ![Fillet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/2acd7d/32.png) [@Fillet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fillet)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2000, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-with-rolls-of-coins/7841/38 "2000-02-14T22:31:00Z")
For all the lawyerly folks, another situation: what about all the tollbooths I’ve seen on the NJ Turnpike with little signs that say “No pennies, please”? Somebody in the state gummint forget to check the rule books? ---
**Author:** ![Arken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@Arken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arken)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2000, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-with-rolls-of-coins/7841/39 "2000-02-15T07:58:00Z")
I used to work for an art-house cinema where I would play both cashier and projectionist. Of course, being art-house, we never had any money and had to hope that people brought exact change for the movie. Early in the showing, people would give me $20s and I would tell them that I would gladly take their $20 if they didn’t want change. Otherwise, they’d have to wait until I had some. Sometimes they got pissed off, even threatening, but what could they do? Of course, they couldn’t go into the theatre until they paid, or I could call the cops on them. In that way, I was both refusing them service and offering to make a sale at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2000, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-with-rolls-of-coins/7841/40 "2000-02-15T13:50:00Z")
Otto, just to let you know, I wasn’t being insulting, I was simply trying to point out that the ins and outs of contract law rarely offer the opportunity for succint short statements. As you will find out soon. 😉 Best of luck with the course! 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-with-rolls-of-coins/7841.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paying-with-rolls-of-coins/7841.md?page=3)