# PC Game Piracy (and I agree with this...) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 17, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pc-game-piracy-and-i-agree-with-this/539800 "2010-05-17T19:20:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pc-game-piracy-and-i-agree-with-this/539800/41 "2010-05-21T17:07:05Z")
No, but demos do. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pc-game-piracy-and-i-agree-with-this/539800/42 "2010-05-21T17:47:05Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Doesn’t game rental fill the gap here? I’ve got no dog in this fight because I don’t pirate - let me assure you though, that that is mainly because I don’t know how and am too lazy to go figure it out. But game rentals around here anyway are shit. I don’t really need a whole Gameflix thing like Netflix (I forget the name of the company that does it). All of the places that rent games have a bunch of the top games and that is it. Ok, fine…but they are ALWAYS rented out. They only have maybe 2 copies of each game and as far as I can tell you can just keep renting them over and over as long as you pay and never have to bring them back. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pc-game-piracy-and-i-agree-with-this/539800/43 "2010-05-21T18:33:46Z")
I wonder why it’s legal for a game developer to forbid you from installing a no-cd crack on software you honestly purchased, but it would not be legal for a furniture manufacturer to forbid you from spray-painting a chair you legally purchased. How in the world has copyright law gotten so crazy when it comes to software? I BOUGHT the goddamned thing! I’m going to do what I want with it. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pc-game-piracy-and-i-agree-with-this/539800/44 "2010-05-21T20:10:04Z")
That’s my issue with the way things with digital media are handled. They force consumers into the worst of both worlds. Either I bought physical media and I can do whatever I want with it, including backing it up or reselling it, or I bought a license, in which case I don’t have to buy a new copy if mine gets scratched or misplaced. The content owners can do either and I’ll be fine with it, but I’m very much not ok with them doing both. Either I own it, or I own a license, but you can’t tell me I’m SOL if I lose my key AND prevent me from reselling it. But the EULA has the same problems as most contracts consumers enter into, meaning there is no room for negotiation. Either sign up and do it 100% the way one of the parties dictates, including the right for them to change the terms at any time for any reason usually, or get stuffed. That’s why I own about six game titles, period. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pc-game-piracy-and-i-agree-with-this/539800/45 "2010-05-24T01:59:03Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > It’s really quite simple. To fight piracy, release a free demo so that anyone who wants to try something out can. Don’t make the DRM make it harder for legitimate users to use. Offer incentives that can only be gotten by using the software as intended. That’s fine to disagree with their business approach; you’re free to do so. I disagree with their approaches. What you’re not free to do is to pirate their games as a form of disagreement. If you think it’s stupid and obnoxious for them not to release a demo, then don’t play the game. > [@Mosier](#): > > I wonder why it’s legal for a game developer to forbid you from installing a no-cd crack on software you honestly purchased, but it would not be legal for a furniture manufacturer to forbid you from spray-painting a chair you legally purchased. What makes you think such an arrangement would be illegal? I’m sure that Ikea could set up some sort of contract I’d have to agree to before purchasing a chair from them, a contract that says I agree not to spray-paint it. Why wouldn’t that contract hold up in court? The place it wouldn’t hold up is in the marketplace. People would buy their chairs elsewhere. Their contract wouldn’t give you a right to steal their chairs, but you’d retain your right not to buy them. Same thing with games. If you dislike anything about a game or its developer, you’re absolutely free not to buy it. > [@Mtgman](#): > > That’s my issue with the way things with digital media are handled. They force consumers into the worst of both worlds. Again, they’re not forcing anything on you. Games are a luxury product, not a necessity. If you don’t like their deal, nobody is making you take it. You can keep your money, and they can keep their game. What’s not okay is your pirating their game because you don’t like the conditions under which they sell it. I’ve got friends who are game developers. The roofs over their heads are there because people pay them for the work they do. If you don’t want their work, that’s totally cool. But I just can’t see how it’s okay to take their work without agreeing to their conditions for taking it. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pc-game-piracy-and-i-agree-with-this/539800/46 "2010-05-24T02:08:41Z")
And that’s really the bottom line…you don’t HAVE to buy their game if you don’t want to. It’s sort of an indication that you DO want the thing, however, if you pirate it. And it’s lame to try and justify what is basically theft. If you don’t like the way a given company is handling their copy protection (and frankly, I don’t like the way some do this) then don’t buy the game…buy a game from someone you prefer, or play only freeware games. Pretty much I think Left Hand of Dorkness nailed this completely. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pc-game-piracy-and-i-agree-with-this/539800/47 "2010-05-24T03:39:09Z")
What it comes down to is that I do not recognize the “right” to bury information. I believe that there is intrinsic value in information continuing to exist and spread. If someone had a copyright on the works of Dostoevsky and did not allow them to be published or sold, I think most readers would support piracy. Actually, piracy would be the only moral choice in my view. Similarly, I don’t think it is wrong to pirate anything that is either not legally available or nearly so (for example, only available legally in another country in a language you can’t understand). This still means I disagree with the vast majority of actual piracy, which targets easily available items. ---
**Author:** ![Dante\_Fevah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Dante\_Fevah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dante_Fevah)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pc-game-piracy-and-i-agree-with-this/539800/48 "2010-05-24T03:48:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It seems to boil down to “companies good, piracy bad, consumers stupid & liars”. And you have issues with this? I doubt companies are good or bad, if they are out to make money. I think people who justify stealing software and games and music and art, aren’t to be trusted fully. Once one justifies one type, it is so much easier to walk over to the next type of stealing. Or are you one to defend, some theft is cool while other theft is not? Just curious. DF ---
**Author:** ![Dante\_Fevah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Dante\_Fevah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dante_Fevah)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pc-game-piracy-and-i-agree-with-this/539800/49 "2010-05-24T03:49:52Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Well…companies are good, piracy is bad, and consumers are generally stupid and lie. So…what’s the debate? 😛 > > (In general I’m against software piracy, but I think there are valid points that can be debated both ways, and certainly not all software and not all piracy are cut from the same clothe. I haven’t slogged through the article, however, and probably won’t unless the OP does a bit more to engage the debate than a drive by link and some cryptic comments) > > -XT there are valid arguments in support of theft of software? care to share a few? ---
**Author:** ![Dante\_Fevah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Dante\_Fevah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dante_Fevah)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pc-game-piracy-and-i-agree-with-this/539800/50 "2010-05-24T03:52:50Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > I read most of it. Will try to sum up. > > Piracy numbers much higher on PC versions than consoles. Most reasons given by pirates to “justify” their piracy are full of shit. Game companies are modifying their business models to accommodate the facts on the ground - focus on consoles, aggressive DRM, move to mmorpgs. Unfortunately, some of these changes are detrimental to pc gaming. However, most complaints about aggressive DRM are overblown, and whenever aggressive DRM prevents day-zero piracy (crack out at or before release date) it’s a huge win for the publisher. > > I don’t see a whole lot to disagree with, but neither do I see any amazingly deep insight into the issue. On the whole I might be slightly more inclined to accept drm now than before reading, but I’m still not going to buy Assassin’s Creed II though I’d very much like to play the game. thank you. after reading the damn thing, the idea of maybe stealing your synopsis/conclusion has me rethinking my position on theft, I like your synopsis of the article. can I borrow your words? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pc-game-piracy-and-i-agree-with-this/539800/51 "2010-05-24T04:03:08Z")
[QUOTE=Dante Fevah] there are valid arguments in support of theft of software? [/QUOTE] Go back and re-read. I’m not saying I support the theft of software. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pc-game-piracy-and-i-agree-with-this/539800/52 "2010-05-24T05:07:44Z")
> [@Dante\_Fevah](#): > > thank you. after reading the damn thing, the idea of maybe stealing your synopsis/conclusion has me rethinking my position on theft, > I like your synopsis of the article. can I borrow your words? Piracy isn’t theft. It’s copyright infringement. It does neither side of the debate any good to conflate the two. ---
**Author:** ![Dante\_Fevah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Dante\_Fevah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dante_Fevah)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pc-game-piracy-and-i-agree-with-this/539800/53 "2010-05-24T05:42:57Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Go back and re-read. I’m not saying I support the theft of software. > > -XT I don’t think I said you did. I thought you said there were valid arguments for theft of software. Why else would your support for being against only be in general? ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pc-game-piracy-and-i-agree-with-this/539800/54 "2010-05-24T05:48:17Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Piracy isn’t theft. It’s copyright infringement. It does neither side of the debate any good to conflate the two. It does the copyright holder a whole lot of good: a) “piracy is infringement on someone’s intellectual property right” isn’t sexy b) as much as they don’t want to sell you a good, and instead sell you a license, they want it to seem like they’re selling you a good. I don’t really have any evidence of this, but I think if you make it crystal clear to consumers that you aren’t actually buying anything physical, they may not like that very much - Imagine being told that that new car you’re buying… well, you’re not actually buying a car, you’re just buying a license from Toyota to operate the vehicle in accordance with these terms and conditions (a lease is different - leases actually transfer a possessory interest). I think customers would react, and demand an actual physical good - which makes their job of fighting against resales (which is really what all this licensing claptrap is about) harder. ---
**Author:** ![Dante\_Fevah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Dante\_Fevah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dante_Fevah)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pc-game-piracy-and-i-agree-with-this/539800/55 "2010-05-24T05:52:18Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Piracy isn’t theft. It’s copyright infringement. It does neither side of the debate any good to conflate the two. If people want distinctions, no matter how narrow or weak, fine. I like a particular wki definition of Piracy: “Piracy is a war-like act committed by private parties (not affiliated with any government) that engage in acts of robbery and/or criminal violence…” -[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy) I doubt I conflated any argument, but you have surely used euphemism to mask ugly truths. I have thousands of tunes on my ipod and have never downloaded one without paying for it. I have thousands of dollars of software I have paid for. I am not wealthy. I was brought up with ethics that demand I pay for what I want that has a monetary price attached to it. Doing otherwise was always called theft. I fully understand the urge of people who imagine themselves honest and ethical to defend illegal acts. Not many people have the courage likes to judge themselves as they would judge others. I do. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pc-game-piracy-and-i-agree-with-this/539800/56 "2010-05-24T05:57:30Z")
> [@Dante\_Fevah](#): > > I was brought up with ethics that demand I pay for what I want that has a monetary price attached to it. Doing otherwise was always called theft. not to sidetrack this too much, but do you feel that you’re committing theft if you stand right outside a concert venue and listen to a performance without having bought a ticket? ---
**Author:** ![Dante\_Fevah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Dante\_Fevah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dante_Fevah)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pc-game-piracy-and-i-agree-with-this/539800/57 "2010-05-24T05:59:25Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > It does the copyright holder a whole lot of good: > > a) “piracy is infringement on someone’s intellectual property right” isn’t sexy > > b) as much as they don’t want to sell you a good, and instead sell you a license, they want it to seem like they’re selling you a good. > > I don’t really have any evidence of this, but I think if you make it crystal clear to consumers that you aren’t actually buying anything physical, they may not like that very much - Imagine being told that that new car you’re buying… well, you’re not actually buying a car, you’re just buying a license from Toyota to operate the vehicle in accordance with these terms and conditions (a lease is different - leases actually transfer a possessory interest). I think customers would react, and demand an actual physical good - which makes their job of fighting against resales (which is really what all this licensing claptrap is about) harder. Your arguments go to the heart of the changes made or solidified into law by the DRCM. Many of the arguments made by others and inferred by you I am in full agreement with. But that doesn’t change the law and what is right or wrong. Because I do not like something is no justification for making theft something it isn’t. Consumers are often misled or screwed by misleading things. Wrongs do not justify things. We have within our society, processes and avenues of approach that are time consuming that allow us to better address these issues, than defending theft with euphemisms. ---
**Author:** ![Dante\_Fevah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Dante\_Fevah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dante_Fevah)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pc-game-piracy-and-i-agree-with-this/539800/58 "2010-05-24T06:01:04Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > not to sidetrack this too much, but do you feel that you’re committing theft if you stand right outside a concert venue and listen to a performance without having bought a ticket? Of course not, because it is legal to do so. It is illegal to sneak in, which I have done in the past. I broke the law. I do not make excuses. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pc-game-piracy-and-i-agree-with-this/539800/59 "2010-05-24T06:07:01Z")
> [@Dante\_Fevah](#): > > If people want distinctions, no matter how narrow or weak, fine. You’re new here, aren’t you? 😛 In all seriousness, it’s not a narrow or weak distinction. If I steal something from you, you no longer have that item. If I copy your intellectual property without your permission, you still have your property. That’s a big difference. Property rights and IP rights are fundamentally different things. A property right is outright ownership of an object. IP rights are government-granted monopolies on specific commercial activities. IP can’t be stolen. Piracy is violating the government-granted monopoly. And stealing ships on the high seas, but we all know that’s not the subject of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pc-game-piracy-and-i-agree-with-this/539800/60 "2010-05-24T06:42:32Z")
> [@Dante\_Fevah](#): > > Of course not, because it is legal to do so. It is illegal to sneak in, which I have done in the past. I broke the law. I do not make excuses. you weren’t content to make a legal distinction - presumably because there is a legal distinction between theft and IP infringement. no, you made an ethical argument “I was brought up with ethics that demand I pay for what I want that has a monetary price attached to it. Doing otherwise was always called theft.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pc-game-piracy-and-i-agree-with-this/539800.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pc-game-piracy-and-i-agree-with-this/539800.md?page=4)