# PDB from AUG 6 is out..full text in OP **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2004, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdb-from-aug-6-is-out-full-text-in-op/239386 "2004-04-10T23:01:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdb-from-aug-6-is-out-full-text-in-op/239386/81 "2004-04-12T07:38:27Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > I quoted Bob Graham, who said that the intelligence about possible hijackings was three years old. That’s what that paragraph mentions. It was a direct quote of the Chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee. If you think that’s ‘patently absurd’, take it up with him. Let’s try this one more time. > [@](#): > > [Human Events Online > The National Conservative Weekly > FLASHBACK: May 27, 2002 > Graham: We Had Same Info as Bush > by David Freddoso > Posted Apr 9, 2004](http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=3558) > > Graham added that threats of hijacking in an August 6 memo to President Bush were based on very old intelligence that the committee had seen earlier. “The particular report that was in the President’s Daily Briefing that day was about three years old,” Graham said. “It was not a contemporary piece of information.” Now, a) The journal you’ve quoted is one that may reasonably be suspected of bias. It’s “The Bible of the Right”, according to itself. Coulter writes for it. Novak writes for it. b) The sentence “The particular report that was in the President’s Daily Briefing that day was about three years old, it was not a contemporary piece of information.” _obviously_ refers to the paragraph about the 1998 hijacking attempt. c) You cannot use that sentence to attempt to prove, as you have done, that the _other_ paragraph about hijacking, i.e. the one that you quoted, is _also_ three years old. The claim is ridiculous on its face. Patently absurd. Silly. > [@Sam Stone](#): > > I notice that Graham says they had access to the same intelligence as Bush. You notice that some GOP mouthpiece _claims_ this. I’m a bit more suspicious. > [@Sam Stone](#): > > Do you reserve any condemnation for your elected representatives, or is this just a Bush thing? It’s not just your analytical skills that are lacking. Your geography could use some work, too. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdb-from-aug-6-is-out-full-text-in-op/239386/82 "2004-04-12T07:49:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Was anybody clamoring for more searches, more hassle, more vigilance? Anyone at all? Yes. Hart Rudman, the CIA, the FBI, and Clarke. > [@](#): > > If Bush issued order to pay a special attention to young Arabs, what would happen? How would the opposition react? Heck, how would he react? He campaigned strong for Arab voters on precisely this issue (see sig). In fact, his Florida booster and pal was an Islamic professor who was later arrested for supporting terrorists. Bush started out as the patron saint of Saudi interests and Arab freedom from excessive security oversight. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdb-from-aug-6-is-out-full-text-in-op/239386/83 "2004-04-12T10:25:46Z")
What sort of expert in “change in large organizations” claims that she can effectively direct the course government bureaucracies by “pulsing” them? You cannot direct the course government bureaucracies by “pulsing” them. You’ve got to shake the tree. Anything less, and you may as well be peeing in the Bush’s. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdb-from-aug-6-is-out-full-text-in-op/239386/84 "2004-04-12T11:49:40Z")
Is this only one aspect of what would be considered the Daily Briefing on National Security? Does he get 10 of these a day or is each memo a focal point of that days meeting? Also, where is the report about suspected terrorists learning to fly but not land? How far up the ladder did that go? ---
**Author:** ![MMI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdb-from-aug-6-is-out-full-text-in-op/239386/85 "2004-04-12T13:26:05Z")
Sandy Berger apparently considered it the job, the duty of the NSA to bitchslap George Tenet and Louis Freeh daily until they began producing and sharing intelligence on terrorism. Taking what they had and making it actionable. It seemed to work to the extent that the millenium plot was defeated. As far as public records indicate Rice did not engage in “shaking the trees” like her predecessor. ---
**Author:** ![CTB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@CTB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CTB)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdb-from-aug-6-is-out-full-text-in-op/239386/86 "2004-04-12T14:25:11Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > …I find it ironic that people using this chance to trash Bush (again) are the strongest proponents of Democracy on this board. Usually, I can’t say a word in defense of extraordinary measures _in the time of war_ without being accused of being a foe of big **D**. Well, **D** means the form of government that executes people’s wishes. Were there any wishes expressed to increase the airport security by anyone before 9-11? Was anybody clamoring for more searches, more hassle, more vigilance? Anyone at all? If Bush issued order to pay a special attention to young Arabs, what would happen? How would the opposition react? Hell, there were lawsuits against singling out young Arabs at the airports after 9-11! > > Or you’d say that **D** is one thing, but the administration should have known more then we do, should have anticipated more then we do, should have acted in the best interests of the country regardless which misconceptions the public might have? And that would be said by the same people that demand perfect transparency and accountability in advance of Iraq invasion?.. Hand me a few billion and a staff of thousands to perform my own intelligence operations whose analysis I can have access to, and I will shoulder all the responsibility you care to put my way. Until then, I will hold those who friggin jobs it is to do so responsible. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdb-from-aug-6-is-out-full-text-in-op/239386/87 "2004-04-12T14:47:45Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Exactly! > > To all those so-called conservatives who are defending Bush’s having been asleep at the wheel, ask yourselves this: what if precisely the same thing had occurred if _Gore_ had been president? If all this obfuscation, deception, secrecy, covering of asses, passing of the buck, etc. had happened during a Gore administration, would you still be as inclined to defend him as you do Bush? On the basis of a memo like this being “proof” of a specific threat, or someone paying no attention to a threat, of course I would. I see nothing saying we ever had specific information of the hijacking of four planes on 9/11 and what their targets were supposed to be. Picking up more of the middle easterners involved might have prevented what we now call “9/11” - it might not have prevented the same thing on 10/12, or 11/30, or some other Plan B the following January, or whatever. And it definitely would have prompted lawsuits. I can just imagine what accusations would have been levelled against Clinton or Bush had they begun an all-out war against al-Qaida prior to an attack here. I agree with **Sam Stone** about this being a Rorschach test. Good one. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdb-from-aug-6-is-out-full-text-in-op/239386/88 "2004-04-12T14:57:50Z")
[Decoding The PDB:](http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/10224) > [@](#): > > I wrote about 40 PDB’s during my four year tenure at the CIA. This particular PDB article was written in response to a presidential request. I am told that Bush’s request was a reaction to the intelligence warnings he was hearing during the daily CIA morning briefings. Something caught his attention and awakened his curiosity. He reportedly asked the CIA to come back with its assessment of Bin Laden’s intentions. The CIA answered the question—Bin Laden was targeting the United States. So the CIA did its job. What was Bush’s response, if any? ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdb-from-aug-6-is-out-full-text-in-op/239386/89 "2004-04-12T15:02:18Z")
The defense that there was no specific information as to the time and nature of the attacks, therefore no more could be done to stop them does, however carry the implication that a similar event could quite easily happen again now. Maybe it should be a campaign slogan. Vote Bush: if Osama lets him know where and when the next attack will come, he’ll be sure to stop it. ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdb-from-aug-6-is-out-full-text-in-op/239386/90 "2004-04-12T15:05:33Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Were there any wishes expressed to increase the airport security by anyone before 9-11? Was anybody clamoring for more searches, more hassle, more vigilance? Anyone at all? If Bush issued order to pay a special attention to young Arabs, what would happen? How would the opposition react? Hell, there were lawsuits against singling out young Arabs at the airports after 9-11! You mean wishes that led to stuff like metal detectors, bomb detectors, ID checks, and baggage x-ray screeners? What you’re leaving out is what the public knew. Was anybody outside of the national security apparatus aware of the Bin Ladin/AQ threat? Precious few, perhaps. The general public knew zilch about the threat of AQ striking within the US. Our national security apparatus knew a whole hell of a lot about it, as evidenced by the “Bin Laden determined to strike in US” PDB. If the public knew what was in the PDB you don’t think there would be a clamor for tighter airport security, more vigilance, even profiling of arab males buying one-way tickets? I think there would. Would there be a stink about it? Of course. People can handle it. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdb-from-aug-6-is-out-full-text-in-op/239386/91 "2004-04-12T15:37:49Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Hart Rudman, the CIA, the FBI, and Clarke. My question was specifically about intensifying inspection procedures in the airports. In concrete terms, such as: detain all young Arab men, no boxcutters allowed, shoes go off etc. I have yet to see anybody recommending that to Bush before 9-11. > [@Apos](#): > > He campaigned strong for Arab voters on precisely this issue (see sig). In fact, his Florida booster and pal was an Islamic professor who was later arrested for supporting terrorists. Bush started out as the patron saint of Saudi interests and Arab freedom from excessive security oversight. Very good point. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdb-from-aug-6-is-out-full-text-in-op/239386/92 "2004-04-12T15:56:15Z")
> [@](#): > > no boxcutters allowed Were boxcutters allowed on planes _before_ 9/11? Why would anyone want or be allowed to take boxcutters onto a plane. The point is, it was the lack of any adherence at American airports to what the rest of the world considered normal security procedures that made the plan so easy to execute. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdb-from-aug-6-is-out-full-text-in-op/239386/93 "2004-04-12T16:47:47Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > Were boxcutters allowed on planes _before_ 9/11? Why would anyone want or be allowed to take boxcutters onto a plane. The point is, it was the lack of any adherence at American airports to what the rest of the world considered normal security procedures that made the plan so easy to execute. I don’t know about box-cutters, but Swiss Army knives were. I took mine on board all the time. George Carlin has a bit, recorded well before 9/11, about how airport security is useless because you are allowed to take knives on board. It is absolutely frightening to listen to now. Maybe if they made him head of security this wouldn’t have happened. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdb-from-aug-6-is-out-full-text-in-op/239386/94 "2004-04-12T16:51:19Z")
> [@mack](#): > > What you’re leaving out is what the public knew. > > Was anybody outside of the national security apparatus aware of the Bin Ladin/AQ threat? Precious few, perhaps. > > The general public knew zilch about the threat of AQ striking within the US. > > Our national security apparatus knew a whole hell of a lot about it, as evidenced by the “Bin Laden determined to strike in US” PDB. > > If the public knew what was in the PDB you don’t think there would be a clamor for tighter airport security, more vigilance, even profiling of Arab males buying one-way tickets? I think there would. > > Would there be a stink about it? Of course. People can handle it. What I am trying to say is that 9-11 was a failure of Democracy, pure and simple. We all are responsible for what happened. In practical terms, how US political system implements the basic tenets of Democracy? Wishes of the population are communicated to the administration in power through appeals by supporting constituency and criticisms by the opposition. Besides responding to those demands, the adm. also has a full time job to assure national security and some other things. Sooner or later the conflict arises between wishes of the population and demands of regular functions of government. When population is not scared it quickly becomes complacent (it also behaves idiotically when scared, but that is a different matter). As a result, the gov. faces a surge of demands to execute “nice” things like end all kinds of discrimination, clear the skies and waters etc., while keeping the country safe, which goes absolutely without saying. But even US gov. doesn’t have infinite resources. The general public absolutely refused to recognize the danger brewing in the ME. All the warnings were there, yet there was practically no reaction until the real disaster struck. What would happen if 9-11 was somehow prevented? Suppose Bush would take a decisive approach from early on, sending troops into Afghanistan and implementing draconian measures inside US directed specifically against Muslims? Suppose it worked, suppose 9-11 wouldn’t take place: would he get any credit? To the contrary, the uproar of uninjured, complacent and misguided public would be probably much greater than anything we see now. Only now, after many years and lives lost, people are beginning to recognize what Clinton was doing against terrorism. Until 9-11, nobody cared, nobody wanted to know. What public wanted to know was all the sordid details of Lewinsky affair. The same treatment would be reserved for Bush. Should Bush have risked public disapproval and try to do more than he had? I think he should have. He bears good chunk of blame. However, I’m not angry at him. But I sure am angry with people who endlessly and heedlessly pester the gov. in the name of Democracy, while fully expecting the same Gov. to fully protect them in time of danger. Those who want full and true Democracy have to realize the risks associated with it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdb-from-aug-6-is-out-full-text-in-op/239386/95 "2004-04-12T16:52:27Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > The defense that there was no specific information as to the time and nature of the attacks, therefore no more could be done to stop them does, however carry the implication that a similar event could quite easily happen again now. Does anyone know the level of specificity that that the Cinton Administration had about the Millennium plots? I’m pretty sure they never had a roadmap, but was it more or less specific than the PDB? The hollowness of the Administration argument is further demonstrated by what they do now when they get an unspecific threat. I think the tree is now shaken, they don’t sit on their butts anymore working on a grand strategy. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdb-from-aug-6-is-out-full-text-in-op/239386/96 "2004-04-12T17:06:15Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > As for ‘recent’, I dunno. Last month? Last year? “Historical”, though? Consider the document in total before you dismiss it so frantically. > [@](#): > > So people who support Bush are claiming that there’s nothing here that would have compelled the President into an emergency course of action, and opponents seem to think this is the smoking gun that proves he was asleep at the switch. (Looking around for the middle … nope, excluded again) Okay, let’s be generous about what you mean by “emergency”. A Level Red, duck and cover, everybody go buy plastic sheeting and duct tape, kind of situation? Is that what you mean? Nobody else does. Well, how about sending out heads-ups to people who might be able to use it, some hints what to look for, use some police shoe leather and knock on some doors and make some calls, that kind of thing? Of course. What \*did \* they do? Nothing. That’s no Rorschach test, it’s simple ostriching. Or maybe you can help us by explaining what course of action you think a responsible chief executive should have followed. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdb-from-aug-6-is-out-full-text-in-op/239386/97 "2004-04-12T17:07:09Z")
Suppose we give George W. Bush the benefit of a doubt, and say that 9/11 couldn’t have been prevented even after he saw the PDB – that while there was a strong suspicion that terrorists were planning to hijack airplanes, no one had anticipated they would use them as flying missiles into big buildings (already shown to be false, but ignoring that…). _Even assuming this was all true,_ doesn’t it reflect poorly on Bush that his apparently planned response to this danger was to do nothing? Did he want to negotiate with hijackers **after** they had taken over an airliner held a hundred people hostage, and maybe killed a stewardess or two? “Mr. President, the hijackers have just killed a stewardess. They say they’ll kill one prisoner every hour until we concede to their demands.” “Perfect, Karl – we’ve got them right where we want them!” “If I may say so, sir, it was a brilliant idea of yours to let them go ahead with their plans. Warning the public and the FAA would have had a negative impact on summer vacation travel.” Is this what the Bush apologists are expecting us to believe? ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdb-from-aug-6-is-out-full-text-in-op/239386/98 "2004-04-12T18:22:13Z")
I like **rjung** ’s line of thought – what’s the difference between having warnings about planes being hijacked and having warnings about planes being flown into buildings? I’d still be pretty pissed if four planes had merely been hijacked on 9/11 and the Prez had this memo on 8/6. I’d want to know the answers to the same questions I have now: What’d you do about it? Who did you bug? Who did they bug? What policies were changed? What was stepped up? Don’t give me empty euphemisms about “swatting flies.” I’m an adult, dammit, I can handle specifics. And I don’t want some obvious rhetoric about an arbitrary distinction between tactics and strategy, between “rolling back” and eliminating aQ. SHOW ME WHAT YOU DID. Here’s the main question that’s been bugging me, and maybe you guys could help me hypothesize some answers. I seem to recall Condi saying that the 8/6 PDB had information about aQ because Dubya had been asking questions. **Squink** had a link (heh, that rhymes) which seems to confirm that. So let’s accept that as true (or contradict it, if you want). Given that, how can this report possibly be merely “historical”? Did the Prez say, “Look, I’ve been hearing bad things about aQ from my daily CIA briefings. Can we get a quick reference sheet to use as we’re pursuing this issue?” If that’s the case, this isn’t simply a “historical” document; it’s a plank in a policy, and I want to see the follow-up that resulted from this PDB. In order for this document to be “historical,” what must the President have requested? “You guys don’t really do much. Hand in a book report about aQ and I’ll give you a grade, and then file it in a library somewhere for the sake of posterity”? I don’t get it. If it’s historical, why did the President request it? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdb-from-aug-6-is-out-full-text-in-op/239386/99 "2004-04-12T18:30:48Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I don’t know about box-cutters, but Swiss Army knives were. I took mine on board all the time. > > George Carlin has a bit, recorded well before 9/11, about how airport security is useless because you are allowed to take knives on board. It is absolutely frightening to listen to now. Maybe if they made him head of security this wouldn’t have happened. Carlin wasn’t the only one. Shortly before 9/11 (and boy I wish I knew the exact date), Family Guy pretty much showed the same idea. [Family Guy] Stewie Griffin walks up to the security checkpoint and notices the x-ray machines. He puts his backpack full of weapons on the x-ray belt and then starts singing “Good Ship Lollypop”. Everyone is so distracted by the kid singing that nobody looks at the monitor while the backpack full of weapons is x-rayed. Then Stewie runs over to the end of the belt, grabs his backpack and says, “Here’s hoping Osama Bin Laden doesn’t know any show tunes”. Then the camera pans over to show Osama singing “I hope I get it” from some musical I can’t recall (A Chorus Line?). [/Family Guy] Of course, everyone knows that animated sitcom creators are far more skilled at putting together intelligence than the US Government. Hell, imagine what Seth MacFarlane could come up with if billions were shoveled his way? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdb-from-aug-6-is-out-full-text-in-op/239386/100 "2004-04-12T18:33:56Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > …doesn’t it reflect poorly on Bush that his apparently planned response to this danger was to do nothing? They were not doing “nothing”. Gov. never does “nothing”, it is a machine that is constantly running. They continued basically in the mode they inherited from Clinton adm. Perhaps they assumed that measures implemented by Clinton will work a while longer? Why didn’t Clinton grab Osama when he had a chance? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdb-from-aug-6-is-out-full-text-in-op/239386.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdb-from-aug-6-is-out-full-text-in-op/239386.md?page=6)