# PDF's, annoying extra spaces between letters? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 21, 2009, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdfs-annoying-extra-spaces-between-letters/486846 "2009-02-21T13:04:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![chicken\_wire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a88e4f/32.png) [@chicken\_wire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chicken_wire)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdfs-annoying-extra-spaces-between-letters/486846/1 "2009-02-21T13:04:51Z")
So there’s this organisation that release information as PDF files, for all comers, on the internet. The text in these PDF’s looks normal when viewed in Adobe’s viewer or Apple’s Preview. If, however, you copy and paste any of the text, you get a space between each character l i k e t h i s . I assume they’re doing this on purpose somehow, possibly to deter people like me from copying and pasting. It’s not a big deal to me, just annoying, but I’d like to know how they pull this off, and what I might do to defeat it. I’m using a Mac, I’ve got TextSoap and Text Wrangler (in addition to the default stuff like TextEdit). Any ideas? ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdfs-annoying-extra-spaces-between-letters/486846/2 "2009-02-21T13:09:47Z")
How about a link so we can try it ourselves? ---
**Author:** ![chicken\_wire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a88e4f/32.png) [@chicken\_wire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chicken_wire)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdfs-annoying-extra-spaces-between-letters/486846/3 "2009-02-21T13:19:07Z")
Yeah, if you think it would help… I was going to leave names out of it, but I’m talking specifically about Train Alteration Advice (TAA) PDF’s from the Australian Rail Track Corporation ([ARTC](http://www.artc.com.au/default.aspx?p=1)) See [here](http://extranet.artc.com.au/docman/default.aspx?documenttype=TAA). Pick a document, any document, copy and paste. It’s riveting stuff, unless you’re not interested in train times in country NSW, Australia. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdfs-annoying-extra-spaces-between-letters/486846/4 "2009-02-21T13:29:55Z")
From _City Rail Altered Working 18th-19th April_ > [@](#): > > V813 will run as tabled by RailCorp to pass Islington Junction 0831, arrive Waratah 0833 depart 0834, > pass Hanbury Junction 0835, arrive Warabrook 0836 depart 0837, arrive Sandgate 0839 depart 0840, From _Trains Altered Hunter Valley_ > [@](#): > > 8436 on Fri 13/03/2009 (max length 720m) will depart Elura 1726, arrive CSA Mine Sidings > 1813 depart 1818, arrive Cobar 1845 depart 2300, arrive Hermidale 0007 depart 0012 Sat > 14/03/2009, arrive Nyngan 0058 depart 0226, arrive Nevertire ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdfs-annoying-extra-spaces-between-letters/486846/5 "2009-02-21T13:43:09Z")
Yeah, I tried a couple and didn’t see the problem you described either. I’m on Windows XP. Could it be a Mac thing? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdfs-annoying-extra-spaces-between-letters/486846/6 "2009-02-21T14:59:46Z")
I didn’t see it in any of the documents. But I think I know what you are talking about. I see it in newspapers and the occasional PDF document; when they try to have even margins on both sides, and don’t want to hyphenate anything. What happens is one line doesn’t have enough words to fill out the room between the margins, and the next word is too long to fit. Instead of hyphenating and only using part of the big word, they’ll “stretch out” the rest of the words to fit, so there are extra spaces. I don’t think I’ve explained it well, I’ll try and find a decent illustration of this phenomenon online and link to it. EDIT: [Here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justification_(typesetting)) is a wiki article that shows what I’m talking about. You can see how the text on the left has variable spaced words to even out the margins. It is fairly well done, though, in that there aren’t really big spaces anywhere. I’m still looking for a more egregious example. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdfs-annoying-extra-spaces-between-letters/486846/7 "2009-02-21T15:07:10Z")
Now I see the OP is talking about spaces between _letters_, not words! :smack: Carry on, please. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdfs-annoying-extra-spaces-between-letters/486846/8 "2009-02-21T15:12:43Z")
**chicken wire?** , with respect to what **DrCube** says, maybe the problem isn’t in the source data but the program you are pasting into. (I’m using a PC and tried pasting into Notepad or Word 2003. No problems.) Perhaps that program thinks those are separate lines, not a single paragraph, and it is forcing justification the way **DrCube** illustrates. Perhaps turning off justification or changing the page width (or margins) will fix it? On preview: **DrCube,** justification routines put extra spaces between both letters and words, as needed. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdfs-annoying-extra-spaces-between-letters/486846/9 "2009-02-21T15:46:47Z")
OK, I just tried this with Safari and OS 10.5.6 Works fine - no extra spaces. What PDF viewer are you using? I am using Apple’s built-in (not Adobe). ---
**Author:** ![chicken\_wire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a88e4f/32.png) [@chicken\_wire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chicken_wire)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdfs-annoying-extra-spaces-between-letters/486846/10 "2009-02-22T00:46:00Z")
:smack: Ahem, I’m now getting much the same results as you guys. Except for with this document: [http://extranet.artc.com.au/docman/DocManFiles/DocTypes/TAA/Files/0110-2009.PDF](http://extranet.artc.com.au/docman/DocManFiles/DocTypes/TAA/Files/0110-2009.PDF) This is the one I was messing with most recently, which prompted starting the thread. Try copying and pasting the “Note#” part from the bottom of that page. From either Apple’s built in Preview app, or from Firefox, I get: N o t e # P i c t o n F r a m e C t o B u x t o n l i n e i s c o n t r o l l e d a n d o p e r a t e d b y N S WR T M , a n d i s p l a c e d o n t h i s T A A f o r i n f o r m a t i o n o n l y From Adobe reader, I get: Note# Picton Frame C to Buxton line is controlled and operated by NSWRTM, and is placed on this TAA for information only The rest of that page copies normally. Maybe ARTC are changing what they do to their PDF’s, and that one line is a throwback or something? Everything they put out used to do the spaced out letters thing, and I was only copying that one line yesterday, so I assumed it was still universal. My mistake. [QUOTE=Musicat] chicken wire?, with respect to what **DrCube** says, maybe the problem isn’t in the source data but the program you are pasting into. [/QUOTE] If it’s spaced out, or not, it’s like that on the clipboard (which I can see in Jumpcut), so I guess it’s the source and not the destination which causes the problem. There’s something going on there, but at least they seem to be scaling back on teh crazy spaces, and Adobe can un-space it, if needed. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdfs-annoying-extra-spaces-between-letters/486846/11 "2009-02-22T00:52:39Z")
If you look closely at the PDF, you’ll see that there are indeed spaces between the letters in the section you indicated. Compare that with the next line, which says: > [@](#): > > This has been entered into TRIMS You’ll see that the letters there are much closer together. The bolding obscures the spacing in your problem section, but there are indeed extra spaces in the original document. ETA: Huh, I should have done this earlier, but when I paste your problem section here, I get no spaces: > [@](#): > > Note# Picton Frame C to Buxton line is controlled and operated by > NSWRTM, and is placed on this TAA for information only ---
**Author:** ![chicken\_wire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a88e4f/32.png) [@chicken\_wire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chicken_wire)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdfs-annoying-extra-spaces-between-letters/486846/12 "2009-02-22T00:56:56Z")
> [@Terminus\_Est](#): > > If you look closely at the PDF, you’ll see that there are indeed spaces between the letters in the section you indicated. Compare that with the next line… > > …You’ll see that the letters there are much closer together. The bolding obscures the spacing in your problem section, but there are indeed extra spaces in the original document. Yes, that’s possible, but they still manage to have _larger_ spaces between words. It makes sense when you look at it in the original document, but not when you copy and paste it some place else. There’s some disconnect there. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdfs-annoying-extra-spaces-between-letters/486846/13 "2009-02-22T01:06:46Z")
Like **Terminus Est** , I get Note# Picton Frame C to Buxton line is controlled and operated by NSWRTM, and is placed on this TAA for information only both here in the reply box and in a text editor. What do you get if you paste it in the reply box? If I select for example just the “a” or just the “m” in frame, there’s a bit of whitespace between the letters that isn’t selected either time. I’m never able to select that bit of whitespace on its own, though. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pdfs-annoying-extra-spaces-between-letters/486846/14 "2009-02-22T01:14:22Z")
And that’s _extra space characters between the visible text characters_, not just wider gaps. It’s definitely in the source text; if you make everything big in the browser, you can see the selection colour jump twice between each letter. (I’m using Firefox 3 on a Mac and when you use the Command-+ key combo to expand the viewed content, it makes everything bigger, not just HTML text.)