# Peace Protesters: Where were you? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2003, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peace-protesters-where-were-you/155469 "2003-02-16T17:53:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peace-protesters-where-were-you/155469/21 "2003-02-17T02:24:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*I don’t know if this is pertinent or not, but back in 1935 the world stood around watching Adolf Hitler built his military machine. He was not supposed to do that. There were sanctions against Germany and how big a military it could have. When FDR wanted to do something about it the doves yelled to the skies for peace. Several years later World War II begin and it ended with 150 million causalties. Now if Germany had been stopped from building its military I don’t think that would have happened. So what is best, small war now, or huge war later. \*\* No matter how many times I hear this argument I don’t get it. We’ve left Saddam alone for twelve years. And he hasn’t hurt us or any of his neighbors. And that is somehow proof that he will hurt us if we continue to leave him alone. I’ve often challenged people to give me one good reason to believe that he’s a threat and I still haven’t gotten one. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peace-protesters-where-were-you/155469/22 "2003-02-17T03:05:39Z")
How will I ever “grow up” if you adults keep [tricking me](http://www.1upinfo.com/country-guide-study/iraq/iraq95.html) about [who sold arms](http://www.csis.org/burke/mb/iraq_edgeofwar.pdf)\* to Iraq in the early 1980s? > [@](#): > > In 1987 the Paris-based Le Monde estimated that, between 1981 and 1985, the value of French arms transfers to Iraq was US$5.1 billion, which represented 40 percent of total French arms exports. Paris, however, was forced to reschedule payment on most of its loans to Iraq because of Iraq’s hard-pressed wartime economy and did so willingly because of its longer range strategic interests. French president François Mitterand was quoted as saying that French assistance was really aimed at keeping Iraq from losing the war. Iraqi debts to France were estimated at US$3 billion in 1987. You might be referring to the story circulating around all the left-wing websites which recounts the biological weapons precursors which allegedly got to Iraq through some US corporations and corporations in other Security Council nations. \*Thanks, **jdavis** ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peace-protesters-where-were-you/155469/23 "2003-02-17T03:21:51Z")
I certainly don’t begrudge the peace protesters their right to be out in the streets expressing their views. And this last weekend’s turnout, around the world, was pretty impressive. The way I read the OP, and I do kind of agree, is why have these people never protest AGAINST the Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein? The guy has been a brutal tyrant for years, and yet none of these groups were out protesting his actions. And you gotta know he’s just laughing right now at all the “allies” he suddenly has. Today’s NYT Week in Review section has an intersting article with interviews of Iraqi refugies in Jordan, and gives some grissley details of what life is like under Saddam Hussein. Anyway, let the protesters air their views. They would be more credible, though, if we saw these groups out protesting the dictators as well (didn’t see many anti-Iraq protests after the invasion of Kuwait, did we?). ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peace-protesters-where-were-you/155469/24 "2003-02-17T03:50:59Z")
I remember what I was doing in 1982 - I was participating in a town hall debate in Canada over the ‘evil’ United States and it’s horrible new weapon, the cruise missile. Back then, the peace crowd was arguing that the cruise missile was intended to be used by the U.S. as a first-strike weapon against the peaceful Soviet Union. People marched in the streets that year against the cruise missile, and the protest-de-jure was to declare whatever little town you lived in a ‘nuclear free zone’. I wonder how many of those protesters still wanted the cruise missile banned after they watched the first Gulf War? ---
**Author:** ![Kempis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kempis/32/19248_2.png) [@Kempis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kempis)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peace-protesters-where-were-you/155469/25 "2003-02-17T03:52:31Z")
I think that the Clinton administration should have forced Saddam to allow weapons inspectors in the country. When Saddam kicked them out, the US didn’t threaten force to let them back in, so Hussein got his way and got bolder. Almost the same thing happened in North Korea. It seems if the peace protesters really wanted peace they’d really be pushing to enforce UN restrictions on aggressive countries, not protesting the enforcement when it happens. Now GW has some bug up his butt about Iraq, much less so than North Korea. Perhaps he knows something we don’t. Either way I applaud him doing this, though I wish he’d do the same for Korea. -k ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peace-protesters-where-were-you/155469/26 "2003-02-17T03:53:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ITR champion \* > \*\*No matter how many times I hear this argument I don’t get it. We’ve left Saddam alone for twelve years. And he hasn’t hurt us or any of his neighbors. And that is somehow proof that he will hurt us if we continue to leave him alone. I’ve often challenged people to give me one good reason to believe that he’s a threat and I still haven’t gotten one. \*\* Did you know that what you say is exactly what the protesters said back then. Sorry, I guess no one really knows for sure. Hitler ordered some of his “brown shirts” to dress as Polish solders and attack a German outpost. Oh, he was outraged at the news Poland attacked his outpost. Soon German Panzers were rolling into Poland to “right the wrong.” I don’t trust dictators, maybe you do. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peace-protesters-where-were-you/155469/27 "2003-02-17T04:02:05Z")
The US is an easy target-- we’re the big guy, and it’s easy to protest against the big guy. I still don’t understand why we didn’t ensure that Iraq’s disposal of weapons was supervised by either the UN or the Gulf War coalition nations instead of having them do it and then we go in afterwards to verify. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peace-protesters-where-were-you/155469/28 "2003-02-17T10:22:45Z")
US support and arming of Iraq for those who unable to utilise the wonders of Google and lack a basic knowledge of recent history. I make no apologies for the broad range of sources. There are hundreds more articles and documents, I just got bored. > **[MSNBC News - Breaking News and News Today | Latest News](https://www.msnbc.com/)** > > MSNBC breaking news and the latest news for today. Get daily news from local news reporters and world news updates with live audio & video from our team. [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/08/18/national/main519036.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/08/18/national/main519036.shtml) [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/12/31/world/main534798.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/12/31/world/main534798.shtml) [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,60702,00.html](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,60702,00.html) [http://www.jonathanpollard.org/1991/091391.htm](http://www.jonathanpollard.org/1991/091391.htm) > **[The Latest News from the UK and Around the World | Sky News](https://news.sky.com/)** > > Sky News delivers breaking news, headlines and top stories from business, politics, entertainment and more in the UK and worldwide. [http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/3885701.htm](http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/3885701.htm) [http://www.sundayherald.com/27572](http://www.sundayherald.com/27572) [http://www.observer.com/pages/story.asp?ID=6356](http://www.observer.com/pages/story.asp?ID=6356) [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52241-2002Dec29.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52241-2002Dec29.html) [http://www.rense.com/general32/suppe.htm](http://www.rense.com/general32/suppe.htm) > **[USA](https://taz.de/!1071837/)** [http://www.webcom.com/~pinknoiz/covert/bnl.html](http://www.webcom.com/~pinknoiz/covert/bnl.html) [http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/ShalomIranIraq.html](http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/ShalomIranIraq.html) [http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2002/506/506p12.htm](http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2002/506/506p12.htm) [http://www.rense.com/general28/chmm.htm](http://www.rense.com/general28/chmm.htm) [http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/publications/iraqgate/iraqgate.html](http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/publications/iraqgate/iraqgate.html) [http://cns.miis.edu/research/wmdme/flow/iraq/seed.htm](http://cns.miis.edu/research/wmdme/flow/iraq/seed.htm) [http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/congress/1992/h920721g.htm](http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/congress/1992/h920721g.htm) [http://lampresource.tripod.com/readlamp/10\_02.htm](http://lampresource.tripod.com/readlamp/10_02.htm) [http://www.casi.org.uk/info/usdocs/usiraq80s90s.html](http://www.casi.org.uk/info/usdocs/usiraq80s90s.html) [http://www.webactive.com/pacifica/demnow/dn20021023.html](http://www.webactive.com/pacifica/demnow/dn20021023.html) [http://vander.hashish.com/articles/misc/usaidediraqdespitegas.html](http://vander.hashish.com/articles/misc/usaidediraqdespitegas.html) [http://www.boulderweekly.com/coverstory.html](http://www.boulderweekly.com/coverstory.html) [http://www.fas.org/news/iraq/1991/C231.html](http://www.fas.org/news/iraq/1991/C231.html) [http://www.sfbg.com/News/32/21/Features/iraq.html](http://www.sfbg.com/News/32/21/Features/iraq.html) > **[Rumsfeld 'offered help to Saddam'](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/dec/31/iraq.politics)** > > Declassified papers leave the White House hawk exposed over his role during the Iran-Iraq war. [http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/02/12/13\_iraq.html](http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/02/12/13_iraq.html) > **[U.S. was a key supplier to Saddam](https://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/U-S-was-a-key-supplier-to-Saddam-1096728.php)** > > In 1982 President Reagan removed Iraq from the list of states that sponsor terrorism,... [http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles/Klare\_Iraq.htm](http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles/Klare_Iraq.htm) [http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com/library/wonderful/iraq.php](http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com/library/wonderful/iraq.php) [http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/colin10.html](http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/colin10.html) [http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2003/525/525p24.htm](http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2003/525/525p24.htm) [http://www.observer.com/pages/story.asp?ID=6356](http://www.observer.com/pages/story.asp?ID=6356) [http://www.nti.org/d\_newswire/issues/2002/8/19/11s.html](http://www.nti.org/d_newswire/issues/2002/8/19/11s.html) [http://www.lecour.net/richard/archives/000290.html](http://www.lecour.net/richard/archives/000290.html) ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peace-protesters-where-were-you/155469/29 "2003-02-17T10:33:05Z")
Cite? ::d&r:: ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peace-protesters-where-were-you/155469/30 "2003-02-17T12:56:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Now GW has some bug up his butt about Iraq, much less so than North Korea. Perhaps he knows something we don’t. Either way I applaud him doing this, though I wish he’d do the same for Korea. I’m not sure N. Korea [BTW: does the N in N.K. stand for North or Nuclear?] would respond in the same way. In any event, its probably better for us to take it slowly. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peace-protesters-where-were-you/155469/31 "2003-02-17T13:05:10Z")
Should have put this in before: Yes, the US did help arm Iraq. That was a mistake, though at the time it probably did not seem to be like a bad idea. I can understand why people would do that, since Saddam was apparently being wooed by the Sovs and we certainly did not want him allying with them. Our shame is that we let moral justice fall to expediency. Nevertheless, we have a chance to set right our wrongs now. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Brian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c89c15/32.png) [@I\_Brian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Brian)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peace-protesters-where-were-you/155469/32 "2003-02-17T13:21:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by lekatt > I don’t know if this is pertinent or not, but back in 1935 the world stood around watching Adolf Hitler built his military machine. He was not supposed to do that. There were sanctions against Germany and how big a military it could have. When FDR wanted to do something about it the doves yelled to the skies for peace. Several years later World War II begin and it ended with 150 million causalties. Now if Germany had been stopped from building its military I don’t think that would have happened. So what is best, small war now, or huge war later. So let me get this straight - Saddam Hussein is building up a massive military machine to make Iraq the dominant world power? After all, that’s got to be the case if we’re using metaphor re; Hitler. If not then the argument is inapplicable. Especially if you want to avoid us Brits repeating lengthy detail about the entire WWII issue. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peace-protesters-where-were-you/155469/33 "2003-02-17T13:29:34Z")
And why aren’t these peace protesters out there protesting in NY and DC today? They can’t be very serious if they don’t protest for the full 3-day weekend. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peace-protesters-where-were-you/155469/34 "2003-02-17T13:52:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by I, Brian \* > \*\*So let me get this straight - Saddam Hussein is building up a massive military machine to make Iraq the dominant world power? After all, that’s got to be the case if we’re using metaphor re; Hitler. > > If not then the argument is inapplicable. Especially if you want to avoid us Brits repeating lengthy detail about the entire WWII issue. \*\* I invoke Godwins Law and declare the case against a unilateral war the official winner. As you were chaps. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peace-protesters-where-were-you/155469/35 "2003-02-17T14:07:47Z")
While I don’t believe Saddam’s Iraq is directly correlated with Nazi germany, I think there is a strong parrallel. Saddam certainly has displayed enough past aggression that I think it foolish to think he will not try again. ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peace-protesters-where-were-you/155469/36 "2003-02-17T15:07:36Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by lekatt_ > I don’t know if this is pertinent or not, but back in 1935 the world stood around watching Adolf Hitler built his military machine. He was not supposed to do that. There were sanctions against Germany and how big a military it could have. When FDR wanted to do something about it the doves yelled to the skies for peace. Several years later World War II begin and it ended with 150 million causalties. Now if Germany had been stopped from building its military I don’t think that would have happened. So what is best, small war now, or huge war later. :rolleyes: Not pertinent at all. The differences between 1930s Germany and contemporary Iraq are so vast that any comparism is useful only to make pro-war types feel a little self-righteousness in their warmongering. Germany was at the time a military power. Iraq tried for ten years and still couldn’t invade a third world country like Iran. If you feel like looking for a country that could be a threat to world peace, try turning your attentions to North Korea. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peace-protesters-where-were-you/155469/37 "2003-02-17T15:27:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*_How will I ever “grow up” if you adults keep [tricking me](http://www.1upinfo.com/country-guide-study/iraq/iraq95.html) about [who sold arms](http://www.csis.org/burke/mb/iraq_edgeofwar.pdf)_ to Iraq in the early 1980s? You might be referring to the story circulating around all the left-wing websites which recounts the biological weapons precursors which allegedly got to Iraq through some US corporations and corporations in other Security Council nations. > > \*Thanks, **jdavis** \*\* Look, I’m sorry for snarling but i’m sick of the cite? cheap debating trick as if everything is on the net and not in books, memory and personal experience. If you are partaking in this thread you should start by fighting ignorance at home and getting some basic understanding of history before jumping in with Cite? We are not your personal research assistants (although my long lists of cites shows I have been dragooned.) And yes, of course others helped, the USSR provided the crap hardware too. As the USA and the UK are claiming the moral highground it’s legitimate to highlight their involvement. At the time of the Kurd gassing the USA and the Uk and probably the West in general denied it happened as Saddam was, in the words of one US politician, “a son-of-a-bitch but our son of a bitch.” In case your history doesn’t encompass this too. The USA and the UK opposed the Vietnamese liberation of Cambodia from the Pol Pot regime in the 80’s and, as the Times reported, armed and trained the Khymer Rouge to fight back instead of seeking a UN led coalition to attack him when in power and committing genocide. Notice any similarities? I’m sorry everything is not on the net but there you are. Some of us were on the streets protesting this sort of crap so you will understand if we now don’t believe Iraq is about morality and take offense at the snide nature of some of these posts. Without any sign the leopard has changed its spots you can expect claims to the moral high-ground to be met by a sorrowful sneer, fuelled by the gap between the good heart of the american people and it’s noble rhetoric and the sordid, cynical reality of the actions of the State. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peace-protesters-where-were-you/155469/38 "2003-02-17T15:39:56Z")
Where were the peace protestors? They were with the people who are now saying that we’ve had 12 years to sort this out. They/I/We all had our collective head in the ground minding our own business hoping this would go away. It hasn’t and now everybody’s awake again. Some are more grumpier than other though 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peace-protesters-where-were-you/155469/39 "2003-02-17T16:04:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yojimbo \* > \*\*Where were the peace protestors? They were with the people who are now saying that we’ve had 12 years to sort this out. They/I/We all had our collective head in the ground minding our own business hoping this would go away. > > It hasn’t and now everybody’s awake again. Some are more grumpier than other though 🙂 \*\* I was cheering on Gulf War 1, fuming at Saddam being let off the hook and protesting at the later betrayal of the Kurds and the continued oppression of the Palestinian people by UN Resolution defying Israel. I supported the war in Afghanistan and Kosovo and was proud the UK stood with the USA after 11/9. Now, in the face of the weaseling hypocricy, lies and cant of Bush and Blair i don’t believe a word the US or the UK says about their motives. I support, as i have always done, a rigorous and ever harsher inspections regime backed by the threat of the use of force under a UN mandate along the lines of the French/German plan. Now we hear the post-war plan is to keep the Ba-athists running things my cynicism monitor has gone off the scale. And let’s not even talk about the coward Bush’s Vietnam war record along with the rest of the chickenhawks. People who oppose the war are not knee-jerk pacifists but to me it seems the supporters of war are knee-jerk warmongers, impervious to counter arguments. Where were you lot, I could ask, when (insert favourite disgraceful piece of Western Cold War and after, real-politick here) if we want to play that game? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peace-protesters-where-were-you/155469/40 "2003-02-17T16:23:00Z")
And I might add, I was from bombing the crap out of the Serb army back in the early 90’s when my own craven government was turning a blind eye to Serb sponsored ethnic cleansing. A European problem Europe could and should have nipped in the bud without dragging in the USA. Gutless. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peace-protesters-where-were-you/155469.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peace-protesters-where-were-you/155469.md?page=3)