# Peaceful Invasion **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 10, 2018, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peaceful-invasion/813945 "2018-05-10T22:23:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2018, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peaceful-invasion/813945/21 "2018-05-11T11:06:26Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Well, the Grapians could do worse than consider the historical example of England/Great Britain Grape Britain. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2018, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peaceful-invasion/813945/22 "2018-05-11T12:53:35Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > Actually, everything he said, it was just too long a quote. > > It can not be done this way, because in the end your implants will either adopt the local culture, assimilate and be accepted, or they will continue to be seen as intruders. > > While my instinct is to say the right answer is let them all stay, Ireland would have been much better off if we’d made them all either take an oath of allegiance or toddle on back home. Even if home was a place they had never been before. Those who were still trying to bring their Graplandian authority to bear should have been expelled. > > There are those who will argue that it has worked, and that there is peace in Northern Ireland now. Don’t confuse traumatized exhaustion and depression with peace. The Irish will never be British, no matter big and cushy a welfare state they build. > > The Democracies should not become racist, but they should uphold their culture, language and beliefs. Racism should not be tolerated. The next generation of pink and lavender kids will work it out between them. But the Grapians will never truly hold the land. This. In the current US, for example, these divisions don’t really matter. Whether someone is of Irish, English, Scottish, or Welsh descent, here they’re just white. Sure, we have divisions along racial lines, but those are due to ongoing issues and not some loyalty to a homeland that people’s great grandparents came from. Take the example of the current immigrants coming to the US from Mexico and Central America. Had that immigration mostly stopped around, say 1900, I think that racism towards Latinos would largely be gone. It happened with other groups who were initially discriminated against (Irish, Italian, Polish, etc.) when immigration from those countries slowed down to a trickle, and the same thing would happen with the hypothetical Grapelanders. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2018, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peaceful-invasion/813945/23 "2018-05-11T13:10:36Z")
Who is supposed to be the winner and who is the loser in this scenario? Sounds like the receiving country is getting a lot of benefits and the sending country is losing a lot. Esp. when they realize their emigrants don’t go along with the plan and stuff starts to backfire. E.g., they start supporting anti-government people in the Old Country, don’t have a ton of kids, etc. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2018, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peaceful-invasion/813945/24 "2018-05-11T13:19:51Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Who is supposed to be the winner and who is the loser in this scenario? Sounds like the receiving country is getting a lot of benefits and the sending country is losing a lot. Esp. when they realize their emigrants don’t go along with the plan and stuff starts to backfire. E.g., they start supporting anti-government people in the Old Country, don’t have a ton of kids, etc. That’s a good point. The hypothetical states the old country is going to be rewarding the emigrants. After a generation or two this is unlikely to go over well in the home country with the people who stayed. Questions will arise, such as “Why are you sending foreign aid to a bunch of people who don’t even live here, when that money can be used right here at home? Another question might be “Why are we paying taxes to support those other people who get benefits but don’t pay taxes?” ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2018, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peaceful-invasion/813945/25 "2018-05-11T14:41:39Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > There are two kinds of countries. Those in which modern adeventurers have established a civilizatiopn where there had previouslyh been none. (E.g., USA, Australia, Brazil). Please clarify what you mean by this. There is either a gap in your knowledge or you hold some profoundly racist views. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2018, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peaceful-invasion/813945/26 "2018-05-11T14:52:26Z")
What the OP is describing is basically akin to the Muslim emigration to Europe of the past few decades, but on a bigger and more intense scale. Imagine if, say, 1 billion radical Muslims (let’s say there is an unlimited supply of radical Muslims in the Middle East for the hypothetical purpose) went to Europe, legally so, became voting citizens, and vowed to “Vote Europe into sharia law.” And also had 3 billion Muslim children who would grow up in Europe and also vote as hardline sharia as they could until Europe became unrecognizable as the liberal Western place it once was. AIUI, that’s similar to what the OP is getting at. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2018, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peaceful-invasion/813945/27 "2018-05-11T15:06:45Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > Please clarify what you mean by this. There is either a gap in your knowledge or you hold some profoundly racist views. Not true–it could be both. ---
**Author:** ![Delicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@Delicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delicious)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2018, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peaceful-invasion/813945/28 "2018-05-11T15:24:59Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > What the OP is describing is basically akin to the Muslim emigration to Europe of the past few decades, but on a bigger and more intense scale. > Imagine if, say, 1 billion radical Muslims (let’s say there is an unlimited supply of radical Muslims in the Middle East for the hypothetical purpose) went to Europe, legally so, became voting citizens, and vowed to “Vote Europe into sharia law.” And also had 3 billion Muslim children who would grow up in Europe and also vote as hardline sharia as they could until Europe became unrecognizable as the liberal Western place it once was. > > AIUI, that’s similar to what the OP is getting at. It’s kind of what I’m aiming for, but rather than a ‘white genocide’ conspiracy theory, it’s an actual stated policy of a country or group …it could be the Pope offering absolution of sins to excessively breeding catholics or white supremacist billionaires subsidising large nordic families. Effectively, if a large organised group tried to take over political power in a democracy in order to undermine it purely through increasing their own numbers, could & should they be stopped and how? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2018, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peaceful-invasion/813945/29 "2018-05-11T15:28:42Z")
> [@Delicious](#): > > Effectively, if a large organised group tried to take over political power in a democracy in order to undermine it purely through increasing their own numbers, could & should they be stopped and how? No, because there’s no way to control the hearts and minds of a new generation being raised in a new culture. While you can certainly bring diversity and new ideas to the host culture, subsequent generations are being assimilated, not the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2018, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peaceful-invasion/813945/30 "2018-05-11T16:26:29Z")
Assuming the democracies operate on a basis of welcome and acceptance, it would put them in a contradictory bind: Either abide by their principles, and allow in the horde that will vote their principles into destruction, or violate their principles in order to preserve their principles. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2018, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peaceful-invasion/813945/31 "2018-05-12T08:35:55Z")
\>\>it could be the Pope offering absolution of sins to excessively breeding catholics\<\< Well, that worked a treat in preventing same-sex marriage in Ireland, didn’t it? Your basic premise simply doesn’t work. Human reality is more complicated. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2018, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peaceful-invasion/813945/32 "2018-05-13T23:36:51Z")
I really want to set up a blind date between this thread and the[gentrification thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=846249). Because it’s basically the same thing, with a different scale parameter. Shorn of the window dressing, what we’ve got here is essentially the Central Problem of Democracy - what happens when you get a majority that wants to do shitty things to a minority? And the answer to that is: a) This is not actually a problem that democracies can deal with. All systems of government have problems, this one is ours. b) It doesn’t actually matter how the majority gets to be a majority, and there are a lot of other ways of slicing a society other than this race/that race, any one of which can give you this problem. c) The observed tendancy of any sort of society is to become more likely to oppress minorities when in trouble and turmoil, and less when rich and successful. So if you’re a minority in a democracy, try to make your country rich and successful, and people won’t bother oppressing you so much. d) There is NO INHERENT CONNECTION between ‘race’ and ‘opinion’. The minority oppression bit happens when the majority has the \*opinion \*that the minority should be oppressed. Luckily for us, the last time there was a serious Grapeland in the world with both the degree of racism necessary to think that taking over other people’s countries is a great idea AND the power to do so effectively, was eighteenth century Europe. There’s really no group around who both can and wants-to colonize like a Victorian Era Brittannia-rules-the-waves imperialist, so I wouldn’t lose sleep over the possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2018, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peaceful-invasion/813945/33 "2018-05-13T23:41:37Z")
Oh, also … you know every democracy in the world is due to get peacefully invaded in about 50 years by a group of new residents with totally different opinions on society, who don’t really care about our customs and will do things their way without reference to what we believe - right? They’re called _our grandkids_. Ask any 90-year-old. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2018, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peaceful-invasion/813945/34 "2018-05-21T09:54:27Z")
I had a looong post that got eaten, but here’s the gist: [ul] [li]Tax foreign award income 90%[/li] [li]Spend all of that on social engineering to 2nd gen immigrants[/li] [li]No private education (including religious schools) allowed. All schools mixed. Make sure kids are in school all day, 6 days a week (but a large part of that is structured play, hobbies, interest clubs, socialisation, not just class lessons) - Grapists are going to have to indoctrinate their kids on Sundays or late at night, I guess.[/li] [li]Emphasise multiculturalism in all aspects of public life including public media and school curriculum - pop stars and tv/movie stars “happen” to frequently be biracial Grape/Other, schoolbooks always have multicultural examples, we appoint mixed ambassadors to Grapestan, etc. [/li] [li]Don’t exclude _pure_ Grapes from public life, though - the odd Nobel-winning Grape scientist with their research in Grape-specific genetic diseases, the Grape TV star spinning a gossip-rag tale of how she chose to only have one kid, the pure Grape lead of the mixed-ethnicity [insert Grape-favoured pop music genre here] band seen regularly partying with Berry groupies in their videos…every bit helps[/li] [li]Heavily penalise parents who have more than two kids, socially/culturally as well as financially (_not_ the kids themselves, who will always have free ed and med even if they’re the 8th kid - just the parents - peer pressure, advertising, general disapproval, labelled as unsustainable, backwards, selfish…emphasise this is not the _kid’s_ fault, treat it as much of a social tragedy as if parents were alcholics or cultists)[/li] [li]Free, readily available and privacy-protected birth control (including abortion-on-demand) without requiring parental or partner consent. Anti-BC activism is unconstitutional and viewed as hate crime in Free Dibblonia.[/li] [li]Pervasive, well-funded education (including state media) at all levels from preschool to adult - in [/li][LIST] [li]world culture (emphasise positives of multiculturalism and backwardness of Grapestan culture), [/li][li]world history (emphasise benefits of Enlightenment and democratic socialism, and the horrors of ethnic conflict and the shortcomings of [monarchy/theocracy/whatever Grapestan has]), [/li][li]science (emphasise non-scientific basis of races, evo benefits of diversity and hybridisation, invasiveness of monocultures and weaknesses and diseases caused by inbreeding), [/li][li]social and sex ed (use Norwegian model -google “Newton pubert sex education” [NSFW] - with added info on interracial relationships (Yay!) and ethnic prejudice (Boo!))[/li][li]etc.[/li][/ul] [li]Fund any within-Grape-community-originated steps to multiculturalism and outreach, like NGOs or social programs, to the hilt.[/li] [li]Fund mixed Grape-Other and biracial sports teams that are scientifically designed to absolutely crush Grapestan at its _favourite_ sports.[/li][/LIST] Basically, I’m not concerned with the immigrants, I want their kids. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/peaceful-invasion/813945.md?page=1)