Peak Oil: How will our lifestyles change? Or is it Quackery.

To me, this whole debate smacks of the Peak Whale Oil or Peak Copper debates of yore. It’s quackery. Certainly there are limits to the global amount of oil (or anything), and certainly one day the price will rise high enough that oil will no longer be a viable transport fuel. And then we’ll move on to something else.

And that’s the think that most of the Peak Oil types seem to be unwilling or unable to comprehend. This isn’t pie in the sky magic pony technology we are talking too. The alternatives to our current oil production are there now. Tar sands. Shale oils. Biomass. Hydrogen and methane (especially methane…how much of THAT is out there? Quick answer…lots more than there ever was oil). Coal. A lot of technologies are waiting in the wings for oil to rise to a certain level so they can be competitive. And then of course there is the magic ponies who are potentially out there a hundred or so years down the pike.

I’m a big believer in greed being a good motivator. And the potential profits for whoever comes up with The Next Big Thing on the personal transport side (or who comes up with viable ways to produce the energy we while cutting carbon emissions) is going to reap big time rewards. I can see the potential for several Bill Gates out of all of this.

When we have a Peak Sunlight problem then I’ll start to worry. Of course I’ll be dead billions of years by then so perhaps not.

-XT

Tar sands and shale oils don’t have any relevance to the Peak Oil question, just to the Peak Easy Oil question. No matter what technologies we’re using to get oil out of the ground, and no matter what kind of ground we’re getting out of it, we’re going to eventually reach a maximum for how much we can pull out of the ground.

And technologies don’t spring full-formed like Athena from Zeus’s head-- They take time. If technologies are to be ready when they’re needed, then we need to start developing them before they’re actually needed.

Depends on how you are using the term Peak Oil. The way I’m using it is the crackpot idea that oil is going to suddenly become very scarce, the price is going to sky rocket up, and civilization as we know it is going to come crashing down (to simplify the, um, theory). I don’t think anyone in this thread seriously thinks oil will last forever, or that we will always find more. What the ‘it’s quackery’ side is saying is that when oil reaches a certain threshold it will open up competition from other alternative sources and eventually we’ll transition to those sources as oil continues to climb in price until it’s replaced as a major transport fuel source. IOW it will be just like the Peak Whale Oil or Peak Lumber crisis of the past.

That’s true. It’s probably a good thing we aren’t waiting around for inspiration from Athena or Zeus then, ehe?

Good thing we (collectively) are doing this already then I’d say. There are already several technologies waiting in the wings, ready as soon as oil rises enough to make their wide scale use economically viable.

-XT

You’re missing (intentionally or not) the point. I don’t know anyone who claimed whale-oil was a vital commodity in our economy or that we would use up a metal like copper. If you want to debate the issue, debate the real issue. People aren’t saying oil won’t be replaced by other energy sources. The claim is that none of these energy sources will be as cheap as oil has been.

I also believe greed is an excellent motivator. More so than you do apparently because I believe it’s been motivating people all along and not waiting to be turned on against future need. But greed hasn’t found an alternative to cheap oil. So maybe that alternative doesn’t exist. Just because we want and need Magic Ponies really bad won’t make them real. We shouldn’t be relying on faith-based economics to save us.

Oil isn’t an issue we’ll be dealing with in billions of years. The debate is between the pessimists who say that it’ll be a problem in our lifetimes and the optimists who say it’ll be a problem in our children’s lifetimes.

Well, I had a nice long reply for you Nemo, but it got eaten by the evil hamsters. I’ll see what I can do about recreating it fast on my phone. Appologies for typos and if some of it doesn’t make much sense…hard to edit on your phone, and no spell checker.

Whale oil was a vital commodity, and there was a lot of talk at the time about it’s economic impacts. There have been several such commodity scarce crisis in the past. So…I AM debating the real issue. Oil peaking isn’t new and it isn’t unique.

To your other point I guess it depends on who these ‘people’ are. Many of the Peak Oil folks I’ve read linked in these threads in the past ARE saying that there aren’t alternatives. As to oil being as cheap…well, initially that may be true. Consider though…our Euro buddies pay more than double what we pay for refined fuels. Yet when the price for refined fuels reached only $4/gallon alternatives were already being trotted out. At $8+/gallon (in the US in adjusted dollars) there will be LOTS of alternatives.

Will it be more expensive? Sure. So what? Once in wide scale use prices will be competetive with companies competing to lower them to capture market share. Even if this isn’t the case we can live with the higher prices…the Euro’s do after all. It won’t mean TEOTWASKI…as most of the Peak Oil types predict.

Well, couple of things here. First off you are wrong…greed HAS found several alternatives. Companies have invested literally billions in this and they haven’t done so out of the good of their hearts or for the betterment of mankind. They have done it in the expectation of making a really big profit some day.

Secondly…OIL IS STILL CHEAP! The market hasn’t put a lot of alternatives in production simply because there isn’t either a need or demand for alternatives (yet). When there IS a need or demand you can bet that there will be products to meet them.

Yes…I know what the debate is. I’m not nearly as dumb as I seem. :slight_smile: My point was there ARE alternative energy sources out there that are untapped (such as the sun). As long as this is the case I think that if there is a need and a demand that there will be ways found to exploit the energy available. If the sun goes out…well, we’re fucked then unless we are ready to move on. It’s moot to me though since I’ll be long gone by that point.

The Peak Oil folks never seem to realize that there ARE alternatives out there and that one of the reasons they haven’t been pushed harder is because oil is so cheap still. I think we got a taste of how things will progress this year when oil went up to $4/gallon. Hybrids came out of the wood work as nearly every car manufacturer trotted out their version. We saw several car manufacturers trot out hydrogen fuel cell cars as well. The Canadians ramped up their efforts to mine their vast tar sands. Shell started up their research on shale oils again. Alternatives were being trotted out all over the place. Now that oil has gone back down and refined fuels are back to VERY low prices (I bought gas for under $2/gallon this morning) they have faded back a bit. That doesn’t mean research and development has stopped though…it just means that now isn’t the time to bring out those kinds of products as there isn’t any demand for them.

-XT

I wouldn’t necessarily call that Luddite, since it’s not opposition to technology as such, but rather a criticism of the uses to which technology has been put. He’d probably agree that there’s a world of difference between using a computer to watch Friends reruns, and using one to have reasoned debates with other people, on vital issues of our time.

Like this one here, for example. :smiley:

In at least one way I think he is right. Life will become more focused on staying where we are than it is now. Transportation is the sector of our infrastructure that is most dependent on fossil fuel. Getting from place to place will become more expensive, especially doing a lengthy daily commute by car. It’s my hope that we’ll begin to question the premise that commuting should be the norm, especially for back office workers. We’ve talked quite a bit about telecommuting in the past here; it’s ironic that many workplaces prohibit the practice, and then ask their employees to spend most of their day interacting and collaborating with colleagues who are hundreds or thousands of miles away.

Again, putting things into production isn’t instantaneous. You’re saying that we haven’t started yet because we don’t yet need to, but when we do need to, we will have finished.

People are trying to make the point that alternative fuels are eventually going to be cheaper than oil, but they’re probably never going to create a transportation fuel that’s cheaper than $3.00/gallon gasoline.

Which is true. Even in Europe people pay the equivalent of $7.00/gallon or more, rather than drive electric cars or hydrogen cars. It’s pretty much trivially true that alternative fuels are never going to be cheaper than today’s $2-3/gallon gas, because if they were they’d have already pushed out gasoline.

Gasoline is the fuel of choice because it is cheaper than all other alternative fuels. This is why we use gasoline to power our cars, because it is cheap and plentiful.

But why in the world do we imagine that a world where transportation costs have doubled or tripled compared to today’s transportation costs is a world where modern civilization is impossible? Is civilization impossible in Europe? How does Europe survive as a high-tech modern civilization when gasoline is $8.00/gallon over there?

It’s true that if gasoline prices jumped from their current price of $2-3/gallon (I just paid $2.06/gallon at Costco yesterday) to $8.00/gallon in a very short time frame, like a year or two, that would cause a pretty severe economic dislocation. But a gradual rise over a decade or two can be dealt with.

How will we deal with it? Build more trains. Build more subways. Build more buses. Mass transit of all sorts. Build more alternative personal vehicles. Build more fuel-efficient gasoline vehicles. Get used to the idea of living closer to your work. Get employers used to the idea of working from home. Carpool. Get used to the idea of paying higher prices for goods where the transportation costs are a very large percentage of the total costs.

The idea that gasoline can only be replaced by some future magic technology and since that future magical technology doesn’t exist yet we’re just deluding ourselves and clapping to bring Tinkerbell back to life is nonsense.

No magic technology is required. We already know how to build nuclear power plants. We already know how to build coal power plants. We already know how to build windmills. Why is this important? Because our modern lifestyle depends just as much on electrical power as it does on cheap transportation. Take Kunstler’s neo-peasant example. Even if we postulate that the age of cheap transportation will be over permanently in a generation, why in the world aren’t these neo-peasants still watching TV? Why can’t they listen to the radio? Why can’t they have computers? Why can’t they have cell phones? Why can’t they have every modern gadget known to man except a personal automobile?

Sure you have to transport iPods and GameBoys and Xboxes and Laptops from the factory to the store to the consumer. So if transportation costs are ten times what they are today, the fraction of the cost of today’s iPod due to transportation costs will be ten times higher. But the thing is, the costs of shipping an iPod and the cost of shipping the raw materials to make an iPod are very small compared to the total cost of an iPod.

The notion that a declining supply of oil will inevitably result in the collapse of civilization is to imagine that the only source of wealth in the world is oil and every other good or service available on planet earth is directly dependent on oil for existance.

Which is nonsense. You don’t need oil to build a nuclear power plant. You don’t need oil to build an iPod. You don’t need oil to watch “American Idol” on cable TV. You don’t need oil to call Grandma a thousand miles away on her cell phone.

And the notion that we need to have cheap oil to build the infrastructure we’ll need to survive the end of cheap oil is likewise nonsense. We need transportation, sure. But trains count as transportation, right?

And even if it turns out that transportation will be much more expensive in the future, well, a more prosperous world can afford to pay higher prices or pay higher prices for alternatives to transportation, such as telecommunications. Future generations might see transportation as a luxury, but if we’re enjoying a prosperous economy luxury goods are more affordable than ever.

And when we get down to it, the notion that the only form of personal vehicle that will ever be economically viable is a gasoline powered sedan is just nonsense. We don’t have to wait for Tinkerbell to hand us some magic technology of the future, we already have the technology. We know how to make electric cars. We know how to make hydrogen cars. We know how to make biodiesel cars. We know how to make natural gas powered cars. We know how to make compressed air cars. We know how to make motorcycles.

Maybe cars of the future will look more like this: http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=corbin+motors+sparrow&gbv=2 than like this: http://images.google.com/images?gbv=2&hl=en&q=h2.

But how does it permanently cripple the global economy if people commute to work in a tiny single seat electric vehicle rather than an SUV? If future fuel prices double or triple or quadruple or octuple, it’s still cheaper to drive a motorcycle to work with octuple fuel prices than it is to drive an H2 to work at today’s fuel prices. So why don’t people drive ultra fuel-efficient vehicles today? Because other things are more important than fuel efficiency!

We don’t need any new technology. The technology to deal with radically increased crude oil prices already exists. Of course these already existing technologies have drawbacks compared to $2-3/gallon gasoline, that’s why we’re not really using them today. But so what? High fuel prices in the future don’t mean the end of civilization, and anyone who argues otherwise has some other agenda they’re peddling.

That’s crazy talk. Everybody knows they’ll look like this.

I’m pretty much with xtisme on this. I would, however, like to see a slow, gradual increase in gasoline taxes that would get the market working on alternatives a bit sooner.

True. But Kunstler is a crank because he both hates modern Western civilization, AND is a Luddite. His calling Western civilization “bloated and diseased” is evidence for the former, while his wishing us all to return to a late-medieval/early-modern way of life is evidence for the latter.

I can’t help but remember an old joke about an escaped slave.

The slave escaped but was caught by the pattyrollers and taken to the judge to decide what to do with him. The judge questioned the slave. “Did they work you very hard back at the plantation?” “No, suh.” “Well, did you get enough to eat?” “Yes, suh.” “Did they beat you?” “No, suh.” “Did they mistreat you in any other way?” “No, suh.” “Well, sounds to me like you had it pretty good. So why in hell did you run away?” “Judge…that job’s still back there if you want it.”

In other words, there’s plenty of opportunity to buy some land in an out of the way place and practice subsistence farming and hand-crafting and community and eat food you grow yourself and make your own music. Nobody’s stopping you from going back to the land. But for some reason guys like Kunstler instead write books about how great it will be once we’re forced back to subsistence farming rather than become subsistence farmers themselves. I wonder why that is?

[quote=“Lemur866, post:48, topic:472202”]

But the thing is, the costs of shipping an iPod and the cost of shipping the raw materials to make an iPod are very small compared to the total cost of an iPod.

Which is nonsense. You don’t need oil to build a nuclear power plant. You don’t need oil to build an iPod.
QUOTE]

iPods are made out of plastic and metal: plastic is made directly from oil, and metals are mined, smelted, and processed using oil or oil dirivatives such as diesel. If you’ve ever been to a large mine site you’ll notice that there’s not a whole lot of 40 ton hybrids driving around. Is it not within reason to believe that as oil becomes too expensive to use for fuel, it will also drive up the costs of all the commodities that are made from it directly or are processed using it’s energy?

As for building nuclear power plants without oil… what are we going to use? chain gangs? or oxen? a single nuclear power plant uses:
400,000 cubic yards of concrete
66,000 tons of steel
44 miles of piping
300 miles of electric wiring—
130,000 electrical components

site: http://www.nei.org/keyissues/reliableandaffordableenergy/factsheets/nuclearpowerplantcontributions/

how do you envision mining, processing, and transporting all those commodities cheaply without using oil?

This is my point. When oil hit $147 a barrel, we kept buying oil because it was still cheaper than the alternatives. So what’s the magic number where the alternatives become the cheaper option; $175 a barrel? $200?

Sure, an alternative will exist - I’ve never disputed that. But the fallacy that many people are claiming is that when oil prices reach $200 a barrel, we’ll finally have the incentive to develop a fuel alternative that costs the equivalent of $20 a barrel.

But we’ve had the incentive a long time to switch to a $20 a barrel alternative. We’ve had that since the day oil reached $21 a barrel. But we didn’t switch then, so the $21 alternative doesn’t exist. And we didn’t switch at $147, so a $146 alternative doesn’t exist either. We now know that the cheapest alternative to oil will cost us at least the equivalent of $148 a barrel.

Actually, I doubt you could find one of those 40 ton vehicles that isn’t a hybrid. At that scale, the most effective way of getting power from the diesel engine to the wheels is to run a generator with the diesel and put an electric motor at each wheel.

Yes, because of the large hump of transition costs that has to be climbed before the alternatives can supplant the economic role of petroleum-based fuels. A brief spike to $147/barrel (it’s now down to about a third of that) doesn’t produce enough sustained revenue for the transition to be profitable. Oil at $100/barrel and a strong consensus among investors that it’s not coming down for a decade or so (the consensus doesn’t need to be universal; it just needs to cover people who control a large chunk of investment capital) would do the trick, though.

Stop right there! WHY is plastic made out of petrochemicals? Because petrochemicals are a cheap feedstock for plastics. You could substitute any sort of organic feedstock for the petrochemicals, except we don’t because the petrochemicals are so cheap. How much did the scrap of plastic in the iPod cost? $0.10? $0.01? Less? The cost of the plastic-as-plastic in the iPod is so low it’s nearly immeasurable. It’s probably about comparable to the cost of a disposable plastic spoon.

Stop right there! WHY don’t you see 40 ton hybrid dump trucks at mine sites? Why don’t you see 40 ton electric dump trucks? Why don’t you see 40 ton steam dump trucks? The technology to create these trucks exists. It isn’t secret. There’s nothing magical about gasoline! It’s just really cheap compared to the alternatives.

Again, you’ve got the idea that an increase in the cost of oil will mean a direct increase in the cost of everything. Double the cost of oil and you double the cost of plastic since feedstock is more expensive. Double the cost of oil and you double the cost of wood, since chainsaws need gasoline. Double the cost of oil and you double the cost of metal, since trucks and tractors run on gasoline. Double the cost of oil and you double the cost of everything, since everything needs oil! And when you double the cost of everything, that doubles the cost of oil, because oil needs everything! And then we’ve quadrupled the cost of oil, which quadruples the cost of everything which octuples the cost of oil…

But this is nonsense. Remember what trains used to run on before diesel? Remember steam shovels? Gasoline is not magic, it’s just cheap and convenient. There are literally hundreds of alternative methods of powering trucks, trains, cars, and tractors. Hundreds.

Nobody is arguing that once oil gets really expensive we’ll invent a fuel that’s even cheaper than oil is today. Those hundreds of alternative methods that I mentioned above aren’t being used today for one reason: they are more expensive and less convenient than gasoline. But fact is, we’re already using lots of alternative fuels. Every day I see buses powered by compressed natural gas. Every day I see biodiesel powered cars. Every day I see electric busses. And not every day but regularly I see electric private vehicles.

And fleet vehicles, like buses, tractors, and so on typically are easier to switch to alternative fuels, since these vehicles don’t refuel at the corner gas station, but rather back at base.

Since oil is a finite resource, eventually we’re going to be paying more for transportation than we do today. But that doesn’t mean disaster. The notion that we can’t build a nuclear power plant without cheap oil is simply ludicrous.