# Pearl Harbor and the Second Amendment -- is this for real? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 13, 2002, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-and-the-second-amendment-is-this-for-real/142473 "2002-12-13T08:46:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-and-the-second-amendment-is-this-for-real/142473/1 "2002-12-13T08:46:22Z")
Hey everybody. Long time lurker, first time poster, looking to verify a possible urban legend. I first saw the story below posted on a bulletin board at a skating rink (yes, a skating rink) in my hometown, with the title, “Is This Still True Today?” Since it’s short and I have yet to see it attributed to an author, I’ve quoted it in its entirety. In case the Mods decide that’s not kosher and cut it out, here’s a URL where you can read it: [http://www.joplinglobe.com/archives/2001/010802/oped/story2.html](http://www.joplinglobe.com/archives/2001/010802/oped/story2.html) > [@](#): > > In 1960, Robert Menard was a commander aboard the USS Constellation when he was part of a meeting between U.S. Navy personnel and their counterparts in the Japanese Defense Forces. > > Fifteen years had passed since VJ day, most of those at the meeting were WWII veterans, and men who had fought each other to the death at sea were now comrades in battle who could confide in one another. > > Someone at the table asked a Japanese admiral why, with the Pacific Fleet devastated at Pearl Harbor and the mainland U.S. forces in what Japan had to know was a pathetic state of unreadiness, Japan had not simply invaded the West Coast. > > The Japanese commander frankly answered the question. “You are right,” he told the Americans. “We did indeed know much about your preparedness. We knew that every second home in your country contained firearms. We knew that your country actually had state championships for private citizens shooting military rifles. We were not fools to set foot in such quicksand.” I suspect that this is a piece of pro-NRA propoganda, or has at least been given a “spin” by anti-gun-control acitivists (like the quote about [Hitler banning gun ownership](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlergun.html)). However, I don’t have any hard evidence to back up my suspicion–I just know that it set off my Bullshit Alarm the first time I read it. [Snopes.com](http://Snopes.com) doesn’t have it listed, and a Google search was inconclusive–the story was repeated over and over, with slight variations and no attribution to be found. Can anyone provide any solid information to confirm or deny this story? And while we’re at it, just what _were_ Japan’s reasons for not invading the West Coast? Even if this story is true, I assume their motivations were more complex than “the civvies are gonna shoot us.” ---
**Author:** ![XPav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/b77776/32.png) [@XPav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XPav)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-and-the-second-amendment-is-this-for-real/142473/2 "2002-12-13T09:04:31Z")
Japan couldn’t have pulled off an invasion of Hawaii, much less the west coast. They didn’t have the men, didn’t have the oil, and didn’t have the ships to pull it off. You can find plenty of sources on that, and it negates the entire story. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-and-the-second-amendment-is-this-for-real/142473/3 "2002-12-13T09:05:14Z")
IIRC, the quick answers are 1. They thought it’d take years to rebuild our navy, 2. They didn’t realize how much they’d pissed us off. They thought we’d take our lumps and cede them the Western Pacific. A historian will be along soon. And I judge your bullshit detector in full working order. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-and-the-second-amendment-is-this-for-real/142473/4 "2002-12-13T09:07:43Z")
To expand: they never wanted to _invade_ the US proper, except perhaps as along-term fantasy. Their immediate goal was the “Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere.” They only wanted us out of the way. ---
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-and-the-second-amendment-is-this-for-real/142473/5 "2002-12-13T09:09:06Z")
For one thing, logistics - it was a tremendous stretch for the Japanese to get to Pearl Harbor - they simply could not extend supply lines across the Pacific - note how long it took the US (which could turn out many more planes and ships than could Japan) to patch together a supply line - Doolittle’s raid was as big (and unsustainable) feat as was Pearl Harbor - the real war came later. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-and-the-second-amendment-is-this-for-real/142473/6 "2002-12-13T09:22:59Z")
Well, FWIW, I found the guy who takes credit for the story, and one attempted debunking. [http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob0109.html](http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob0109.html) > [@](#): > > Armed citizens: > the deterrent factor > By Massad Ayoob > > Some months ago, in an article in this publication titled The Rationale of the Automatic Rifle, I quoted some oral history from war veteran and career Navy man Bob Menard. I first met him at the NH State Championship of outdoor conventional pistol shooting back in the late Sixties. He won that event and held the title for several years. He had been Virginia State Champion prior to moving to the Granite State. Some years later, Robert Menard was the NRA Counselor who certified my wife and I as a firearms instructor through that organization. > > Bob had told us that he’d been aboard the USS Constellation—he remembered the year as 1960—when he had been part of joint maneuvers conducted with what were by then called the Japanese Defense Forces. Over dinner and drinks, with Japanese and American naval officers talking shop, many of the WWII veterans, the question had come up, why didn’t the Japanese invade what they must have recognized as the wide open West Coast of the United States at the beginning of that war? > > The officer had replied that his country was well aware that there was a high density of armed citizenry in America, even state championships for private citizens in the use of military rifles, and that the Japanese were not fools to set foot in such quicksand. Menard, even then a man committed to Second Amendment rights, naturally kept a vivid memory of the conversation. > > The story has found its way onto the Internet. Now comes one “TSB,” who holds forth on the Internet against Menard, with remarks like the following: > > \< snip \> > > According to On Target, the journal of the North Central Florida Sportsman’s Association, “TSB is the handle for ‘The Shooting Bench’ radio show host, Bill Walker.” TSB’s position is that the reason the Japanese did not invade was that it wasn’t in their interest to do so, and that they lacked the physical wherewithal for such a massive undertaking. Furthermore, he says, the Constellation was in dry-dock for fire damage repair during 1960, implying that Menard therefore must have fabricated the whole thing. Found all this. [http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/64.htm](http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/64.htm) > [@](#): > > USS CONSTELLATION (CVA-64) > (later CV-64) > CLASS - KITTY HAWK > Displacement 60,100 Tons, Dimensions, 1047’ 6" (oa) x 129’ 4" x 37’ (Max) > Armament 4 Terrier-SAM, 100 Aircraft. > Armor, Unknown. > Machinery, 280,000 SHP; G.E. Geared Turbines, 4 screws > Speed, 34 Knots, Crew 4154-4580. > > * * * > > Operational and Building Data > > Contract awarded on 1 July 1956 to the New York Naval Shipyard, Brooklyn, N.Y. Laid down 14 September 1957, launched 8 October 1960, commissioned 27 October 1961. Reclassified as a “Multi-Purpose Aircraft Carrier” (CV-64) on 30 June 1975. The Constellation wasn’t even floated until October 8, 1960, and was still in construction in drydock on December 19, where it caught on fire. [http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/ships/carriers/partv/cv-hist5.html](http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/ships/carriers/partv/cv-hist5.html) > [@](#): > > Dec. 22, 1960 - Fire broke out on the hangar deck of Constellation (CVA 64) in the last stages of construction at the New York Naval Shipyard. Fifty civilian workers died in the blaze. [http://www.carriersg.org/130.htm](http://www.carriersg.org/130.htm) > [@](#): > > CONSTELLATION, CVA 64, January 22, 1961, Fire Damage Assessment > Ron Reeves, a charter member on Aircraft Carrier Study Group, has provided additional information of the disastrous fire on Dec. 19, 1960 that took 50 lives. > > The monetary damage to CONSTELLATION was put at $47.942 million. Her commissioning was delayed by seven months. A roll of honor is to be placed aboard her to remain there as long as ‘Connie’ is in service. Tom Armstrong, another charter ACSG member, recently forwarded me a photograph of this plaque listing the event and names of the deceased shipyard workers. So my guess is gonna be that it’s possible that the anecdote may be substantially true–that Menard may have had such a conversation, but that the Japanese person may have been joking, and perhaps Menard either didn’t realize it, or chose to interpret it seriously because it reinforced something he already wanted to believe, but that he obviously remembered the date wrong, as it couldn’t have been 1960. But just because an old man reminiscing got the date wrong doesn’t necessarily invalidate the whole anecdote, or turn it into an Urban Legend. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-and-the-second-amendment-is-this-for-real/142473/7 "2002-12-13T12:58:41Z")
It is not exactly a secret, but also not well known that the Japanese actually bombed a forest on the west coast, in Oregon. The story (which I cannot vouch for) is that they considered forests a strategic resource, not realizing how much there was in the US. There is a small museum in Klamath Falls, OR, that has part of the story. But a full scale invasion was obviously well beyond them. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-and-the-second-amendment-is-this-for-real/142473/8 "2002-12-13T13:41:07Z")
Hari: Being as I am a naturally lazy man and disinclined to look anything up myself, was this forest fire started by one of the infamous incendiary balloons launched by the Japanese? ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-and-the-second-amendment-is-this-for-real/142473/9 "2002-12-13T13:54:27Z")
**Hari** and **DrFidelius** – you’re both right. I was looking up aviation stuff in my almanac just last night, and I came across that very point. Japan’s incendiary balloon attack was the first – and as of that writing, only – aviation attack against the US mainland. The almanac’s very brief report said that the attack’s intent was to terrorize the American population. (It didn’t work.) The cite for this is my 2000 almanac, I don’t remember who produced it. ---
**Author:** ![aahala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e4f/32.png) [@aahala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aahala)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-and-the-second-amendment-is-this-for-real/142473/10 "2002-12-13T14:10:40Z")
Let’s see if I have this right. You want us to provide evidence to confirm or deny this: You see an article about 2002, author unknown, claiming the author was told about 1968 that Bob told him of a comment made about 1960 by a Japanese admiral(unnamed) who had been drinking, about the motivation of an event which did not take place about 1942. Which aspect are we investigating? I suggest we start with the skating rink. Where was this, when were you there, which bulletin board was the article posted? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Carnage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/max_carnage/32/12775_2.png) [@Max\_Carnage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Carnage)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-and-the-second-amendment-is-this-for-real/142473/11 "2002-12-13T14:17:23Z")
I’m sorry, I really don’t have anything historical to add, but I just wanted to welcome **LeeshaJoy** and tell you that this is IMHO the best first post I’ve ever seen. Lurking has served you well. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-and-the-second-amendment-is-this-for-real/142473/12 "2002-12-13T14:22:02Z")
> [@](#): > > I was looking up aviation stuff in my almanac just last night, and I came across that very point. Japan’s incendiary balloon attack was the first – and as of that writing, only – aviation attack against the US mainland. Of course there was one seaborne attack on the coast of California early in the war. IIRC, the captain of the subamrine that fired on an oil refinery actually visited the refinery before the war. Again IIRC, there was no or minimal damage. Re: the OP. As everyone knows, I am a strong supporter of our Bill of Rights – including the Second Ammendment. As much as I think it would be a nice bit of propaganda if the OP is true, others have noted that the Japanese did not seriously consider invading the U.S. IIRC (I have to put that since this is my first post of the day and I’ve had no coffee yet) an Japanese officer, possibly Yamamoto, said something to the effect of, “If we invade the United States we will have to fight our way across the company and deliver the terms of surrender on the Capitol steps.” Or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Rodd\_Hill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3ab097/32.png) [@Rodd\_Hill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodd_Hill)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-and-the-second-amendment-is-this-for-real/142473/13 "2002-12-13T15:18:19Z")
Actually, in addition to the thousands of FUGO balloons released from the home islands (some 300 accounted for as landing on North American soil, or in coastal waters), a lone plane of the Imperial Japanese Navy bombed Oregon–twice. Warrant Officer Nobuo Fujita, and an enlisted man observer, flew two missions from _I-25_ (a submarine), off Cape Blanco, Oregon, in September of 1942. His GLEN E 14Y floatplane carried two small incendiary bombs on both missions, and all four bombs were released about 50 miles inland, one of which started a small fire. His aircraft was reported at least twice by firewatchers. Bomb fragments and incendiary pellets were recovered from at least one of the two bomb sites. Excellent link: [http://www.portorfordlifeboatstation.org/article1.html](http://www.portorfordlifeboatstation.org/article1.html) IIRC, Fujita died about 4 or 5 years ago. There were a dozen or so torpedo or deck gun attacks on US and Canadian merchant ships from California to British Columbia, as well as shore shelling from deck guns on at least 3 occasions (including Goleta, CA, Fort Stevens, OR, and Estevan Point Lighthouse, British Columbia). No real damage, as Johnny L.A. says, but it certainly upset civilians along the coast, and tied up planes and men guarding the coast. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-and-the-second-amendment-is-this-for-real/142473/14 "2002-12-13T15:34:25Z")
What Max said, Leesha. Thank you for doing your homework before writing your report. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Janx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Janx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Janx)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-and-the-second-amendment-is-this-for-real/142473/15 "2002-12-13T17:42:54Z")
\*\* Johnny L.A. \*\* wrote > [@](#): > > Of course there was one seaborne attack on the coast of California early in the war. IIRC, the captain of the subamrine that fired on an oil refinery actually visited the refinery before the war. Again IIRC, there was no or minimal damage. You are right, growing up in Santa Barbara CA. this story came upp all the time, it’s a piece of local folklore. [Read about it here](http://www.school-for-champions.com/history/sbattack.htm) ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-and-the-second-amendment-is-this-for-real/142473/16 "2002-12-13T18:21:00Z")
Welcome aboard **LeeshaJoy**. Consider, if you will, the behavior of Germany, which had not been much opposed when it scooped up various territories in its general vicinity and said “These areas really should have been considered part of Germany anyway. And that’s all we wanted, really, move along folks, nothing else to see here.” Japan would not have been outrageously stupid and unprecedented to think that the US would simply accept that the Pacific belonged to Japan, a strong Pacific-based empire, and that the US, far to the east, had no legitimate business trying to maintain a presence there. The US was not at risk (aside from Hawaii) and I suspect they figured the Americans, a bunch of isolationists, would have no interest in fighting a long and expensive and bloody war over its tiny handful of Pacific territories. ---
**Author:** ![dreamlab](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8dc957/32.png) [@dreamlab](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamlab)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-and-the-second-amendment-is-this-for-real/142473/17 "2002-12-13T18:47:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hari Seldon \* > \*\*It is not exactly a secret, but also not well known that the Japanese actually bombed a forest on the west coast, in Oregon. The story (which I cannot vouch for) is that they considered forests a strategic resource, not realizing how much there was in the US. There is a small museum in Klamath Falls, OR, that has part of the story. But a full scale invasion was obviously well beyond them. \*\* Here’s a link regarding the Oregon Bombing, the use of FUGO, or balloon bombs. The museum supposedly has a dud on display, but I have yet to see it. I guess I just haven’t been bored enough to go. There’s just too much excitement here with a mall crammed with over 18 stores (known as “The Mall”) and the finest restaurant in town located in the bowling alley. And I have yet to find any freakin falls. Enough ranting, here it is. [http://www.all-oregon.com/city/klamathfalls/history.htm](http://www.all-oregon.com/city/klamathfalls/history.htm) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-and-the-second-amendment-is-this-for-real/142473/18 "2002-12-13T20:41:35Z")
Regardless whether there was ever a real Bob Menard who ever had a real conversation, it is fairly simple to demonstrate why Japan never considered attacking the U.S.–they were entirely consumed with Asia. The really serious debates among the Japanese leadership between 1935 and 1941 was whether to extend their war in China south to include the French Indo-China and Malaysia and the Dutch East Indies, (where they could find cultures more similar to their own to govern, as well as rubber and oil for their industry), or whether to attack north into Russia (whom they had already beaten earleir in the century) and take Siberia with its minerals. After a couple of small and unsuccessful forays into the Soviet Union, the decision was made to head south. The only purpose of attacking the U.S., at all, was to prevent U.S. interference with their expansion (since the U.S. was already placing embargoes on Japan in regards to their war in China). An attack on the U.S. mainland would have been an extremely expensive and wasteful deviation from their agreed upon strategic plan. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-and-the-second-amendment-is-this-for-real/142473/19 "2002-12-14T00:36:35Z")
> [@](#): > > - it was a tremendous stretch for the Japanese to get to Pearl Harbor - they simply could not extend supply lines across the Pacific This is simply not true - the Japanese took and held an island of ours up in Alaska for quite some time. Their supply lines only broke down after we were able to launch an effective counter attact. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-and-the-second-amendment-is-this-for-real/142473/20 "2002-12-14T01:22:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by k2dave \* > \*\*This is simply not true - the Japanese took and held an island of ours up in Alaska for quite some time. Their supply lines only broke down after we were able to launch an effective counter attact. \*\* I think we should have let them have two islands and that way they would have wasted even more man power. YMMV [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-and-the-second-amendment-is-this-for-real/142473.md?page=2)