# Pearl Harbor Questions **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 6, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-questions/617974 "2012-04-06T02:35:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-questions/617974/1 "2012-04-06T02:35:43Z")
It’s Sunday morning, December 7th, 1941. 1. You’re sitting on a bench overlooking the harbor in Lahaina, Maui. The Japanese attack starts at Pearl Harbor on Oahu. Lahaina and Pearl are about 80 miles apart, and there is an island (Molokai) between the two. As you sit facing east (toward Lanai), would you have seen or heard anything? 2. Immediately following the attack on Pearl, what extra measures were taken on the islands should there have been a second attack. 3. Was there ever a plan by the Japanese to strike Hawaii a second or third time? 4. What happened to people of Japanese decent who happen to be living on Hawaii at the time of the attack? ---
**Author:** ![SanDiegoTim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85e7bf/32.png) [@SanDiegoTim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanDiegoTim)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2012, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-questions/617974/2 "2012-04-06T03:50:14Z")
1. Don’t know 2. Reaction was confused and laced with inaccuracies. Nothing was done that would have particularly effective against a landing of Japanese troops. 3. Admiral Nagumo opted not to go back for a second run as he did not want to risk his fleet. Bad move on his part. 4. Good question. Here on the mainland distrust was rampant leading to internment camps. Don’t think such camps existed on the Islands. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2012, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-questions/617974/3 "2012-04-06T04:39:33Z")
Actually, there was a second wave (run), there was going to be a third one but that was the one that was not done. > **[Attack on Pearl Harbor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor)** > > Japanese victory > 1941 > 1942 > [@](#): > > Nagumo, however, decided to withdraw for several reasons: > > ``` > American anti-aircraft performance had improved considerably during the second strike, and two thirds of Japan's losses were incurred during the second wave.[81] Nagumo felt if he launched a third strike, he would be risking three quarters of the Combined Fleet's strength to wipe out the remaining targets (which included the facilities) while suffering higher aircraft losses.[81] > > ``` One of the most annoying items when series or movies are made of the incident is to not mention the contrast of what happens when you are totally off guard and when all your anti aircraft guns are finally manned and beginning to beat the crap of the last wave. We usually see just the Japanese dominating the air and dropping bombs at will. > **[File:Attack on Pearl Harbor Japanese planes view.jpg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor_Japanese_planes_view.jpg)** > > A torpedo has just hit USS West Virginia on the far side of Ford Island (center). Other battleships moored nearby are (from left): Nevada, Arizona, Tennessee (inboard of West Virginia), Oklahoma (torpedoed and listing) alongside Maryland, and California. > On the near side of Ford Island, to the left, are light cruisers Detroit and Raleigh, target and training ship Utah and seaplane tender Tangier. Raleigh and Utah have been torpedoed, and Utah is listing sharply to port. > Japanese planes are visibl... But then many times recreations do not show what it amounted to a good reply to the Japanese. (Yeah I know, sounds pitiful after they caught you with your pants down, but it was a hard enough reply that nevertheless prevented the Japanese from causing more damage that many historians point it could had added years to the war). It is clear that Japanese aviators reported to Nagumo on how Pearl Harbor was turning into a hornets nest after the surprise was gone. Trojan Horse link removed- **samclem**. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2012, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-questions/617974/4 "2012-04-06T04:39:41Z")
As to your question 4, there were some arrests of Japanese citizens and people of Japanese descent who were considered potentially disloyal or suspected of having pro-Japanese sympathies, but there weren’t the mass internments like there were on the West Coast. There were just too many Japanese on Hawaii to make that practical. Besides, the islands were placed under martial law, so the government figured that that would be sufficient to stop any potential espionage or sabotage. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2012, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-questions/617974/5 "2012-04-06T04:50:46Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > It is clear that Japanese aviators reported to Nagumo on how Pearl Harbor was turning into a hornets nest after the surprise was gone. FYI, my anti-virus software (Avast! freeware edition) popped up a trojan warning on this link. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2012, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-questions/617974/6 "2012-04-06T04:50:58Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > Norton is warning me of malware there. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2012, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-questions/617974/7 "2012-04-06T04:53:39Z")
[Aww, it’s probably just those B-17s from the mainland.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCR-270_radar#Use_of_SCR-270_radar_at_Pearl_Harbor) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2012, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-questions/617974/8 "2012-04-06T04:55:47Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > Norton is warning me of malware there. Got no warning from my security essentials nor from Noscript, in any case see the image here: > **[Photography](https://www.latimes.com/california/photography)** Correction: NoScript did block access to several other sites pushing scripts in the other site, I hope [NAVY.com](http://NAVY.com) is not involved on that (one of the blocked sites) ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2012, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-questions/617974/9 "2012-04-06T05:15:26Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > Lahaina and Pearl are about 80 miles apart, and there is an island (Molokai) between the two. As you sit facing east (toward Lanai), would you have seen or heard anything? Well, Lanai is actually west of Lahaina, with Pearl Harbor being west-northwest. At 80 miles, the curvature of the earth makes anything below about 4200’ out of sight. But visibility is rarely that good anyway. So your chance of seeing anything would have been extremely low. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2012, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-questions/617974/10 "2012-04-06T12:49:01Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Actually, there was a second wave (run), there was going to be a third one but that was the one that was not done. > > [Attack on Pearl Harbor - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor) IIRC, Genda (the aviator who planned the details of the attack) urged the third strike, particularly for the purpose of hitting the naval fuel oil storage, among other facilities. But Nagumo decided otherwise. Nagumo was a battleship admiral by training; perhaps that inclined him to value wrecking the American battleship fleet (which they had accomplished) over smashing port facilities or the still-missing American carriers. ---
**Author:** ![tellyworth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@tellyworth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tellyworth)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2012, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-questions/617974/11 "2012-04-06T13:00:18Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > Norton is warning me of malware there. That site has indeed been hacked and infected with malware. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2012, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-questions/617974/12 "2012-04-06T14:27:16Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > IIRC, Genda (the aviator who planned the details of the attack) urged the third strike, particularly for the purpose of hitting the naval fuel oil storage, among other facilities. But Nagumo decided otherwise. > > Nagumo was a battleship admiral by training; perhaps that inclined him to value wrecking the American battleship fleet (which they had accomplished) over smashing port facilities or the still-missing American carriers. You have to remember that the American carriers were not in the harbor, and none of his scouts had sighted them as of yet. (The Japanese were unaware of the missions to the islands of Midway and Wake that the _Enterprise_ and _Lexington_ were away on.) From his point of view, there’s at least two American carrier’s lurking around somewhere nearby. With his main goal of mauling the main units of the Pacific fleet essentially finished, he decided not to push his luck. Nagumo was being carefull, but he was responsible for the near irreplaceable carrier arm if the IJN. I think he gets unfairly criticized for this. No commander’s knowledge of such a large battlefield is perfect, he didn’t have access to the info we amatuer historians have now. ---
**Author:** ![Ashley\_Pomeroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c68b51/32.png) [@Ashley\_Pomeroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashley_Pomeroy)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-questions/617974/13 "2012-04-06T16:29:30Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > 1. Was there ever a plan by the Japanese to strike Hawaii a second or third time? I read this as meaning a second or third attack some time later in the war, rather than subsequent attack waves during the initial strike. Pearl Harbour continued to be a major base throughout the war and remained strategically significant - did the Japanese ever plan to strike it again? Presumably the defences were beefed up, and any Japanese fleet approaching the islands would have been spotted and mauled long before it reached strike range. And the Japanese had their hands full elsewhere. But I can imagine an alternative history novel in which the Japanese launch a ground assault on Hawaii - it would be a mirror-image of the Battle of Iwo Jima, fought for the same reason - but that would require either continued disastrous mismanagement of the US war plan or some kind of incredible good luck on the part of the Japanese. [This article](http://www.combinedfleet.com/pearlops.htm) dismisses the idea as complete nonsense but, hey, _Raise the Titanic_ was complete nonsense, too. And the book was successful anyway. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2012, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-questions/617974/14 "2012-04-06T16:44:46Z")
> [@Ashley\_Pomeroy](#): > > I read this as meaning a second or third attack some time later in the war, rather than subsequent attack waves during the initial strike. Pearl Harbour continued to be a major base throughout the war and remained strategically significant - did the Japanese ever plan to strike it again? Not specifically, as they were not in a position to do so. The attack on Pearl Harbor was possible because it was a surprise attack; without the element of strategic surprise it wasn’t possible. The attack on Midway, substantially closer to Japan than Hawaii, ended in disaster. Without successful invasion of Midway there would never have been serious consideration of another attack on Hawaii. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-questions/617974/15 "2012-04-06T17:56:14Z")
There was another air attack on Pearl Harbor, carried out by two H8K “Emily” four engined seaplanes, on 4 March 1942. They scored no hits. [Operation K - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_K) The extreme range of Pearl Harbor from Japanese held islands meant that any followup attacks would have to come from the Kido Butai, which was kept very busy supporting the overrunning of the PI, Indonesia, Burma, and raids on Australia and Ceylon. (The tempo of operations maintained by the KB is impressive.) ---
**Author:** ![detop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bcef8e/32.png) [@detop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/detop)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-questions/617974/16 "2012-04-06T18:18:23Z")
> [@Ashley\_Pomeroy](#): > > \But I can imagine an alternative history novel in which the Japanese launch a ground assault on Hawaii - it would be a mirror-image of the Battle of Iwo Jima, fought for the same reason - but that would require either continued disastrous mismanagement of the US war plan or some kind of incredible good luck on the part of the Japanese.\ [Already done](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Days_of_Infamy_series#Days_of_Infamy) ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-questions/617974/17 "2012-04-06T18:56:56Z")
> [@SanDiegoTim](#): > > 1. Reaction was confused and laced with inaccuracies. Nothing was done that would have particularly effective against a landing of Japanese troops. An invasion of Hawaii just wasn’t in the cards. Apart from lacking the transports and tankers to attempt a landing, there weren’t many beaches suitable for landing on Oahu, the island was defended by two full strength infantry divisions (24th and 25th), and was bristling with coastal artillery, 100 guns from 155mm to 16 inch. Even with all this in place, additional reinforcements began arriving [two weeks later](http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/Guard-US/ch8.htm): > [@](#): > > The initial military reinforcement of Hawaii following the Pearl Harbor attack was guided by a lengthy list submitted by General Short on 8 December 1941, of the troops and equipment most urgently needed for the defense of Oahu and by several supplementary lists sent by him during the next few days. By 12 December the War Department had arranged to ship from San Francisco some 7,000 men, more than 100 crated pursuit ships, 3,000,000 rounds of the scarce caliber .50 ammunition, more than 8,000 aircraft bombs of assorted sizes, and a variety of other munitions. On the evening of 13 December the Army had 2 fast transports loaded and ready to go, but the Navy refused to let them leave without escort. They finally sailed with 3 slower ships on the 16th, and reached Honolulu five days later-but only a fortnight after the Pearl Harbor attack. A second and larger convoy of ii ships departed from San Francisco on 27 December and arrived in Hawaiian waters on 7 and 8 January 1942. Together these convoys brought about 15,000 more troops to Oahu, and the unit reinforcements included two regiments of infantry, one regiment each of field artillery and coast artillery, and light tank, signal, and railway artillery battalions. With their arrival the strength of the Hawaiian Department was increased to about 58,500 officers and enlisted men, and it now had most of the heavy bombardment and pursuit strength allotted a month earlier. Despite a continued serious shortage of antiaircraft weapons, the second week of January found Oahu generally well secured against invasion. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-questions/617974/18 "2012-04-06T19:01:18Z")
If you were sitting on Maui, some 80 miles away, you’d have missed the show. A 6 foot person sees about 3.0 miles before the curvature of the earth obscures his view. According to [this site](http://www.ringbell.co.uk/info/hdist.htm), you’d need to be approx. 4500 feet high to see 80 miles. You might have seen some smoke rising, or perhaps some very high level aircraft, but that’s all. ---
**Author:** ![anson2995](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@anson2995](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anson2995)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-questions/617974/19 "2012-04-06T19:40:40Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > If you were sitting on Maui, some 80 miles away, you’d have missed the show. A 6 foot person sees about 3.0 miles before the curvature of the earth obscures his view. > > According to [this site](http://www.ringbell.co.uk/info/hdist.htm), you’d need to be approx. 4500 feet high to see 80 miles. You might have seen some smoke rising, or perhaps some very high level aircraft, but that’s all. Even aside from the curvature issue, objects that are farther away are harder to see. If you stick your hand out at arm’s length, an object a mile away had to be about 200 feet high to be as big as your thumb. At 80 miles, I think you’d have trouble distinguish an object smaller than a mile long. You would not be able to see planes or ships, and even the smoke plume was likely not big enough to be visible from that distance. Sound waves are also affected by the curvature issue, and the strength of sound diminishes significantly over distance. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2012, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pearl-harbor-questions/617974/20 "2012-04-06T21:46:06Z")
Regarding point #1, while as many have said Honolulu/Pearl would be over the horizon from Lahaina, don’t be too harsh on people claiming to remember it. Keep in mind the way in which the mind constructs perceptions and then stores memories. It wouild be very easy to have someone over they years go from “We were in Maui and didn’t know anything about it at first, then got fragmentary and distorted news, then accurate news, picturtes, and newsreels,” to “We were in the Islands, and it was all confusion at first, and there were suddenly Japs in the air,” etc. – and **actually believe they saw** what happened from Maui. The mind can play interesting tricks like that. With regard to #4, apart from the arrest of a few known subversives, the Japanese-American community was left largely alone – and responded by raising a large number of volunteers to fight in the European Theater. They had something important to prove.