# Pedestrians and cars competing to get through intersections **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 29, 2013, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492 "2013-08-29T13:05:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/1 "2013-08-29T13:05:04Z")
In the United States, it is the norm that when a traffic signal turns green that the pedestrian crossings parallel to the moving traffic also get a green. The result is that in heavy pedestrian areas, cars turning right or left—as opposed to those going straight through the light—have to compete with crossing pedestrians in order to get through the intersection. Often this means that only one car can get through the intersection in one signal cycle, resulting in backups on heavily used city streets. Why is it that it seems that no one has thought to give pedestrians their own slot in the cycle? It would seem obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/2 "2013-08-29T13:55:09Z")
NYC you mean? When the light turns green and 900 citizens amble across the crosswalk, ignoring the honking of the cabs, the buses, and everything else, breathing in all the fumes? ---
**Author:** ![yanceylebeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yanceylebeef/32/12290_2.png) [@yanceylebeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yanceylebeef)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/3 "2013-08-29T14:16:31Z")
Denver does this. It works fairly well. they also used to allow pedestrians to walk diagonally through an intersection, but with the introduction of light rail downtown, they have eliminated that feature. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/4 "2013-08-29T14:19:57Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Why is it that it seems that no one has thought to give pedestrians their own slot in the cycle? It would seem obvious. That’s how it works here in the UK. If a pedestrian gets a green light, no traffic will have any right of way through the crossing, coming from any direction. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/5 "2013-08-29T14:48:34Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > In the United States, it is the norm that when a traffic signal turns green that the pedestrian crossings parallel to the moving traffic also get a green. > > The result is that in heavy pedestrian areas, cars turning right or left—as opposed to those going straight through the light—have to compete with crossing pedestrians in order to get through the intersection. > > Often this means that only one car can get through the intersection in one signal cycle, resulting in backups on heavily used city streets. > > Why is it that it seems that no one has thought to give pedestrians their own slot in the cycle? It would seem obvious. From what you’ve described, it sounds like it’s the cars wanting to turn, not the pedestrians, who need their own slot in the cycle. And in some cases, they already do. I’ve seen intersections where a green turn arrow is accompanied by a pedestrian DONT WALK signal for the crosswalk the cars would be turning through. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/6 "2013-08-29T14:56:26Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Why is it that it seems that no one has thought to give pedestrians their own slot in the cycle? It would seem obvious. Because in the US, pedestrians are an afterthought. ---
**Author:** ![brad\_d](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@brad\_d](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brad_d)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/7 "2013-08-29T15:47:36Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Why is it that it seems that no one has thought to give pedestrians their own slot in the cycle? It would seem obvious. It’s not terribly common, in my experience, but I have seen it in Pasadena, California and Las Vegas. As others mention, it can be set up to permit pedestrians to cross the intersection diagonally, which is kind of convenient. I’ve only seen it in areas with very heavy pedestrian traffic (Old Pasadena and the Strip). You can make out partial “diagonal crosswalks” at the intersection Colorado and Raymond in Pasadena in the [Google Maps aerial photo](https://maps.google.com/maps?q=pasadena,+ca&hl=en&ll=34.145778,-118.148876&spn=0.000556,0.000587&sll=36.093741,-115.172921&sspn=0.00217,0.002347&t=h&hnear=Pasadena,+Los+Angeles,+California&z=21). ([Link](https://maps.google.com/maps?q=pasadena,+ca&hl=en&ll=34.145773,-118.148998&spn=0.000559,0.000587&sll=36.093741,-115.172921&sspn=0.00217,0.002347&t=h&hnear=Pasadena,+Los+Angeles,+California&z=21&layer=c&cbll=34.145773,-118.148998&panoid=-b4SpC4pBo-3Qrsi35LdxQ&cbp=12,334.29,,2,5.73) to photo of “Diagonal Crossing OK” sign at that same intersection) The potential downside is that if there are few or no pedestrians around, car throughput takes a serious hit since nobody can go for a sizeable percentage of the time - not exactly what you want if your aim is to avoid congestion. So it seems to me like something that can improve vehicle throughput when there are lots of pedestrians, but hurt it when there are few. It’s easier to create traffic signal patterns that change their timings in response to the presence or absence of vehicles - trickier (but I would imagine not impossible) to do that in response to pedestrian volume. That’s an interesting idea; I’d be surprised to discover that no one is actively working on it. ---
**Author:** ![Paintcharge](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paintcharge/32/7946_2.png) [@Paintcharge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paintcharge)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/8 "2013-08-29T15:50:38Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > From what you’ve described, it sounds like it’s the cars wanting to turn, not the pedestrians, who need their own slot in the cycle. And in some cases, they already do. I’ve seen intersections where a green turn arrow is accompanied by a pedestrian DONT WALK signal for the crosswalk the cars would be turning through. Good in theory, however the pedestrians around here don’t pay any attention to “don’t walk” signals. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/9 "2013-08-29T15:51:48Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Because in the US, pedestrians are an afterthought. They are in my city, too (and I walk here A LOT!). We don’t have as much trouble with too many pedestrians not allowing cars to turn (except downtown); the problem I’ve found here is drivers expecting to turn and not looking for pedestrians who have the right-of-way. I waited for my walk light; you didn’t look ahead at where you were going, and now you have to wait while I cross, and you are blocking traffic. That isn’t my problem. Unfortunately, and I get quite irate at other pedestrians for doing this, sometimes people try to cross when they _don’t_ have a walk light - when the cars do indeed have right-of-way (like on a dedicated left turn arrow). That doesn’t make things better for anyone. ---
**Author:** ![brad\_d](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@brad\_d](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brad_d)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/10 "2013-08-29T15:56:17Z")
> [@Paintcharge](#): > > Good in theory, however the pedestrians around here don’t pay any attention to “don’t walk” signals. I did notice that this is sometimes a problem even where there’s a “pedestrian only” cycle. My experience is that pedestrians often don’t pay much attention to the walk/don’t walk signal, but rather just start going when the vehicles moving in their direction have a green light. If enough people do that, all of the benefits of giving pedestrians their own light cycle tend to disappear - while you still have extended periods during which no vehicles can go at all. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/11 "2013-08-29T15:58:40Z")
> [@brad\_d](#): > > It’s not terribly common, in my experience, but I have seen it in Pasadena, California and Las Vegas. Boston too. On intersections with especially heavy pedestrian traffic you’ll see light cycles with no cars at all, or no turning traffic allowed. Not the norm, but not that unusual to find. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/12 "2013-08-29T16:08:33Z")
A separate cycle for pedestrians can be found in places all over the country. There is no one good answer for the problem. The DoT has a [Signals and Signs](http://www.walkinginfo.org/engineering/crossings-signals.cfm) page that talks about the half dozen or so ways engineers try to attack it. The issue is compliance. While complete separation of pedestrian and wheeled traffic works best theoretically, the longer the interval between cycles the more incentive pedestrians have to jump the signal, since they are almost never penalized (ticketed) for doing so. And the imposition of a separate cycle during periods with little to no pedestrian traffic means that cars have to wait through an extra cycle for no purpose. Mixed length signals at varying times of day can help, but that propagates throughout the entire system, as whatever happens at one light affects all lights for many blocks in all directions. Even that presumes that pedestrian traffic is consistent year-round. If not, that adds another layer of complexity. Computerization has in fact helped traffic engineering in huge ways. But it’s not a panacea. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/13 "2013-08-29T16:49:20Z")
> [@](#): > > And the imposition of a separate cycle during periods with little to no pedestrian traffic means that cars have to wait through an extra cycle for no purpose. Well, how about the pedestrian cycle occurring only when someone has pushed the “press to cross” button? ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/14 "2013-08-29T16:57:32Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Why is it that it seems that no one has thought to give pedestrians their own slot in the cycle? It would seem obvious. They have. We have those in Ann Arbor. It’s not done in general because it isn’t needed in general, and reduces the rate of traffic flow through an intersection. Another thing we do here, to minimize pedestrian/car conflicts, is sometimes the walk signal turns on a second or two before the green light, so driver’s won’t see an empty lane, and cut off the pedestrian who’s also about to start walking. ---
**Author:** ![JustinC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justinc/32/8083_2.png) [@JustinC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustinC)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/15 "2013-08-29T17:05:26Z")
I wonder if traffic turning and pedestrians crossing at the same time is safer? If they’re separated the traffic turning doesn’t expect pedestrians to be there and may travel faster. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/16 "2013-08-29T17:07:39Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Well, how about the pedestrian cycle occurring only when someone has pushed the “press to cross” button? That’s covered in the cite I gave, which points out that it’s not optimal. > [@](#): > > For optimal pedestrian service, fixed-time signal operation usually works best. Pedestrian pushbuttons may be installed at locations where pedestrians are expected intermittently. Quick response to the pushbutton or feedback to the pedestrian (e.g.- indicator light comes on) should be programmed into the system. When used, pushbuttons should be well-signed and within reach and operable from a flat surface for pedestrians in wheelchairs and with visual disabilities. They should be conveniently placed in the area where pedestrians wait to cross. Section 4E.09 within the MUTCD provides detailed guidance for the placement of pushbuttons to ensure accessibility. > [@ZenBeam](#): > > They have. We have those in Ann Arbor. It’s not done in general because it isn’t needed in general, and reduces the rate of traffic flow through an intersection. > > Another thing we do here, to minimize pedestrian/car conflicts, is sometimes the walk signal turns on a second or two before the green light, so driver’s won’t see an empty lane, and cut off the pedestrian who’s also about to start walking. That’s known as LPI and is also covered in that article. > [@](#): > > A simple, useful change is the LPI. An LPI gives pedestrians an advance walk signal before the motorists get a green light, giving the pedestrian several seconds to start in the crosswalk where there is a concurrent signal. This makes pedestrians more visible to motorists and motorists more likely to yield to them. This advance crossing phase approach has been used successfully in several places, such as New York City, for two decades and studies have demonstrated reduced conflicts for pedestrians. The advance pedestrian phase is particularly effective where there is a two-lane turning movement. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/17 "2013-08-29T17:30:55Z")
The typical thing I see is that where there is a decent demand for left trns, quite often there is a “left turn light”. When this signal is green, oncoming traffic is stopped (red light, or green right turn arrow only, or if thru traffic is blocked, there are two “left turn only” arrow lights.) and also the pedestrians have a “DONT WALK” light. The problem is when you add up a series of left turn lights - some intersections have one direction left and through, then teh other side, then the 3rd direct, then the fourth - you are waiting plenty long enough already for a green. One small town I saw solved this problem by making every other green light “don’t walk”. Predictably, pedestrians then totally ignored the signs rather than wait rhough 2 cycles. ---
**Author:** ![Lukeinva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lukeinva/32/17872_2.png) [@Lukeinva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lukeinva)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/18 "2013-08-29T17:45:01Z")
Downtown (DC) there are some intersections that allow the pedestrians to cross first while cars still have a red for another 15-20 seconds. Basically it gives the foot traffic a head start. Cars will obey these signals but pedestrians not so much. ---
**Author:** ![dstarfire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dstarfire/32/5762_2.png) [@dstarfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dstarfire)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/19 "2013-08-29T17:53:24Z")
At on intersection, that problem is handled by making one side of the street a no-crossing zone, with an adjustment of the signalling so that vehicles turning right start going while the street is still partially blocked (to pedestrians) by another traffic flow (in this instance, the left-turn lane opposite the folks turning right). Of course, you have to remove the crossing signal there since there’s never a slot for the pedestrians. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/20 "2013-08-29T18:01:29Z")
Two people were hit at a busy intersection near my house in Portland. The city put in a pedestrian walk button on all four corners. When pushed, the green gumby comes on a few seconds before the traffic green light. In theory, this gives walkers enough time to enter the intersection, where they can be more easily seen. I’m not sure how well that really works, but haven’t heard of any more accidents there. Pedestrians in Portland absolutely have the right of way. Basically, the law reads that if you even have one foot off the curb, traffic MUST stop, regardless of whether or not there is a crosswalk. Drivers usually comply with the law here, whereas in Anchorage they would speed up and aim for you. Heavy fines and serious charges can be levied for failure to comply. That said, I’ve been yelled at by drivers because I’m not in a crosswalk. :rolleyes: [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492.md?page=2)