# Pedestrians and cars competing to get through intersections **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 29, 2013, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492 "2013-08-29T13:05:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/21 "2013-08-29T18:16:56Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Pedestrians in Portland absolutely have the right of way. Nope, not quite. That misunderstanding causes considerable grief. > [@](#): > > Pedestrians are not by any means totally absolved of responsibility for road safety.[Oregon has a long list of statutes regarding pedestrian right of way](http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/BIKEPED/docs/bike-ped_statutes.pdf?ga=t)and drivers’ duties of care when out on the roads. They include: > > [ul] > [li]Obeying the lights at a controlled intersection. If the pedestrian is facing a red light, they do not have any right of way. Similarly, if they are facing a steady yellow light, they may not enter the roadway.[/li][li]If the pedestrian is facing a sign that says _Don’t Walk or Wait,_ they do not have the right of way. This becomes a bit tricky if the pedestrian has entered a crosswalk when the light says _Walk_, then changes to _Don’t Walk or Wait_. In those cases, it is the pedestrian’s duty to move to a point of safety, like a traffic island or footpath, and wait until they once again have the right of way.[/li][li]If the pedestrian suddenly leaves the curb or footpath when a vehicle is so close it constitutes an immediate hazard, the pedestrian does NOT have the right of way. This is the kind of case where a competent Portland pedestrian attorney can give good advice.[/li][li]If the pedestrian is crossing the road at any point besides a marked crosswalk, or at an intersection (in other words, jaywalking), they do NOT have the right of way and must yield to any vehicle on the roadway. This is another potentially contentious issue. Many pedestrians feel they always have the right of way, but any Portland pedestrian attorney will advise you \*\*Oregon statute 814.030 \*\*will come out in favor of the driver in these cases.[/li][/ul] [http://www.portlandpersonalinjuryaccidentlawyer.com/blog/pedestrian-accident/right-of-way-law/](http://www.portlandpersonalinjuryaccidentlawyer.com/blog/pedestrian-accident/right-of-way-law/) ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/22 "2013-08-29T19:51:24Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > Nope, not quite. That misunderstanding causes considerable grief. > > [http://www.portlandpersonalinjuryaccidentlawyer.com/blog/pedestrian-accident/right-of-way-law/](http://www.portlandpersonalinjuryaccidentlawyer.com/blog/pedestrian-accident/right-of-way-law/) Guess I deserved the yelling, then. Courtesy should prevail, though, IMO. Especially when you’re a long way from a crosswalk. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/23 "2013-08-29T19:59:30Z")
> [@yanceylebeef](#): > > Denver does this. > > It works fairly well. they also used to allow pedestrians to walk diagonally through an intersection, but with the introduction of light rail downtown, they have eliminated that feature. Called a “Barnes Dance”, or a “Pedestrian scramble”: > **[Pedestrian scramble](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedestrian_scramble)** > > A pedestrian scramble (or exclusive pedestrian interval) is a type of traffic signal movement that temporarily stops all vehicular traffic, thereby allowing pedestrians to cross an intersection in every direction, including diagonally, at the same time. > In Canada and the United States, the pedestrian scramble was first used in the late 1940s but fell out of favor with traffic engineers due to increased delays for pedestrians and drivers. Its benefits for pedestrian flow and safety have led to ... Henry Barnes, who promoted it, was a Denver traffic engineer. ETA: It also meant they had to add another audible “chirp” signal for the vision impaired. What they used in Denver was a constant ringing bell, much like a telephone bell, while the scramble was on. ---
**Author:** ![xizor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xizor/32/102_2.png) [@xizor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xizor)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/24 "2013-08-29T20:02:21Z")
I recall several major intersections in Tokyo having a pedestrian phase in the traffic cycle where all vehicles in every direction are stopped. Pedestrians cross any way they need to, including diagonal. Then when vehicles are using the intersection are pedestrian traffic is stopped. ---
**Author:** ![Iggins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Iggins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggins)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/25 "2013-08-29T20:02:24Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Guess I deserved the yelling, then. Courtesy should prevail, though, IMO. Especially when you’re a long way from a crosswalk. That’s true, in a perfect world. I’m from PDX, too, and many of the people I see crossing outside a marked crossing tend to step out from between cars, within a couple feet of traffic, and are not looking left or right. Then, when I screech to a halt, I get the stink eye/flipped off/yelled at. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/26 "2013-08-29T21:31:56Z")
> [@Iggins](#): > > That’s true, in a perfect world. I’m from PDX, too, and many of the people I see crossing outside a marked crossing tend to step out from between cars, within a couple feet of traffic, and are not looking left or right. Then, when I screech to a halt, I get the stink eye/flipped off/yelled at. Unfortunately, pedestrians carry the same attitude while in a private parking lot, where _the rules of the road offer no protection_. I see too many peds leave a store and walk directly into the parking lot to their vehicle without stopping or looking. Cascade Station is a classic example. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/27 "2013-08-29T22:33:46Z")
> [@Iggins](#): > > That’s true, in a perfect world. I’m from PDX, too, and many of the people I see crossing outside a marked crossing tend to step out from between cars, within a couple feet of traffic, and are not looking left or right. Then, when I screech to a halt, I get the stink eye/flipped off/yelled at. It’s the scariest part of driving here, and it took me a long time to get used to it. There are those you described; then there are those with an apparent death wish who walk out into crosswalks (usually texting) without bothering to see if people have seen them and are actually stopping; those who fling their car doors open into your lane of traffic, causing you to either hit the brakes or swerve to miss them; the Cool Doodz who stroll into the intersection when the light is red for them, daring you to hit them (obligatory finger wave/look of scorn when you hit the horn). The drivers that really irk me are the masses of people who feel that if something is in the way in their lane (bus, parking car, person opening a car door), it’s perfectly acceptable to swerve into oncoming traffic, because hey, I’m in a hurry, and I expect you to avoid the collision. It’s nerve-wracking, and I’m amazed that bus drivers don’t have a high rate of PTSD or nervous breakdowns. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/28 "2013-08-29T23:48:06Z")
I was just in Oakland a couple of weekends ago and encountered diagonal crossing in the downtown/Chinatown border. It is a good idea, and would work really well if pedestrians actually gave a damn about the cycles. But that’s generally true at most intersections. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/29 "2013-08-30T00:02:11Z")
My favourite pedestrian manoeuvre here in snowy Calgary is pedestrians who think that their right-of-way negates the laws of physics - you can’t just step out in front of a car that is driving on an icy road and expect them to stop like they’re on dry pavement. ---
**Author:** ![j\_sum1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8baadc/32.png) [@j\_sum1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j_sum1)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/30 "2013-08-30T00:55:27Z")
Three separate kinds of cycles operate in NZ. 1. Pedestrian light goes on at the same time as the traffic light. This only happens when the pedestrian button is pushed. It is accompanied by a sign that says “Turning traffic give way to peds”. This situation is fairly rare and usually occurs in locations with large traffic volumes and few pedestrians such as major inner city arterial routes and industrial areas. 2. As above but pedestrian light comes on several seconds before the traffic light goes on. Peds are therefore given priority. They are more than half-way across the road before the traffic moves. 3. In pedestrian dense areas such as the inner city, pedestrians are given their own phase in the cycle. On some intersections diagonal crossing is allowed. Seems to work well. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/31 "2013-08-30T15:49:07Z")
I walk through several pedestrian scrambles (I love that – I always just called it the diagonal crossing) every day on my way to work in downtown San Francisco. It works very well for those of use who are familiar with the system, but it is very confusing to tourists, who often look to the traffic lights to know when to walk, rather than to the walk/don’t walk signals. You see them stepping off the curb when the light is green, and then realizing that it’s for cars only (often because there is a major right turn lane) or alternatively not walking when the light is red, even though the walk signal is on. The scariest thing for me is that I don’t always pay attention to which intersections are scrambles. Sometimes when I see the walk signal, I think I can cross diagonally, but that isn’t always the case. I think in general it’s a very good system that is much safer for pedestrians, as long as the pedestrians pay attention to the signals and use it properly. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492/32 "2013-09-02T01:43:26Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The issue is compliance. I did some observing this weekend, and I see what you mean. There was an intersection in which there were left turn arrows and the pedestrian walk signal was delayed to allow the left-turning cars to be able to get through quickly. But almost every time, pedestrians ignored the delayed signal and started walking as soon as cross-traffic got a red. It’s annoying that good solutions don’t work because of scofflaws! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pedestrians-and-cars-competing-to-get-through-intersections/667492.md?page=1)