# Pelosi's Palatial Plane Preference: Piggishness or Republican Pablam? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 8, 2007, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pelosis-palatial-plane-preference-piggishness-or-republican-pablam/391385 "2007-02-08T18:40:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pelosis-palatial-plane-preference-piggishness-or-republican-pablam/391385/141 "2007-02-11T16:54:13Z")
The issue’s been resolved. She’ll use Hastert’s old plane for long flights, a smaller jet for shorter ones. So much for this ‘theory’. You may remove your foil chapeaux now. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pelosis-palatial-plane-preference-piggishness-or-republican-pablam/391385/142 "2007-02-11T17:07:40Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] Um, folks, I already posted once about this. I’ll be a bit more explicit: if you feed them, they will keep coming out from under bridges… [/QUOTE] However, explicit accusations of trolling by one poster to another in this Forum (or any forum outside the **Pit** ) are expressly prohibited, so I trust that we will see no similar comments, here. The poster in question does not have a reputation for trolling. A specific thread in which I, as Mod, have advised him to change his behavior does not make him “a troll.” And since I have alreay addressed the issue as a Moderator, I would really prefer to see no more comments on the topic. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pelosis-palatial-plane-preference-piggishness-or-republican-pablam/391385/143 "2007-02-11T17:20:29Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] I’ve been patient and I will continue to do so even though I’ve left bread crumbs all over the place. [/QUOTE] Maybe next time if you try a less crummy argument… Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2007, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pelosis-palatial-plane-preference-piggishness-or-republican-pablam/391385/144 "2007-02-12T03:26:17Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Actually, this thread is very explicitly about Pelosi and claims made against her by one segment of one political party. Your posts, with sly little digs and irrelevant _hints_ that _something else_ is going on very nearly resembles trolling. Either post an explicit thesis with arguments showing how they apply to this thread, or back off. [/Moderating] [/QUOTE] I posted specific data on the aircraft and also said this was not about Pelosi. And yes I tried to goad people into research. Call it what you like. A C-20 is overkill for her needs and anything larger would be obscene. This was never about security issues. If it was then Pelosi would be guaranteed a plane that will go non-stop. If the [Boston Herald](http://news.bostonherald.com/editorial/view.bg?articleid=182247&srvc=home) is correct, she’s not. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2007, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pelosis-palatial-plane-preference-piggishness-or-republican-pablam/391385/145 "2007-02-12T03:42:55Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] I posted specific data on the aircraft and also said this was not about Pelosi. And yes I tried to goad people into research. Call it what you like. A C-20 is overkill for her needs and anything larger would be obscene. This was never about security issues. If it was then Pelosi would be guaranteed a plane that will go non-stop. If the [Boston Herald](http://news.bostonherald.com/editorial/view.bg?articleid=182247&srvc=home) is correct, she’s not. [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: That is an opinion piece parroting the republican accusations. But NPR did ask: [http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7283476](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7283476) > [@](#): > > The C-21, the military version of the eight-seater Lear Jet. Its maximum range is 2,306 miles. Each plane cost $3.1 million. > > The C-20B, the military version of the 12-seater Gulfstream III. Its maximum range is 4,250 miles. There are five C-20Bs based at Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland, near Washington, D.C. Each plane cost $29.4 million. > > The C-37A, the military version of the 12-seater Gulfstream V. It’s able to fly at high altitudes and therefore fly to other continents, with a 6,300-mile range. There are seven C-37As based in the United States, with four at Andrews Air Force Base. Each plane cost $36 million. > > The C-40C, the military version of the Boeing 737, is used for Cabinet members and Congress. It has two galleys and a bed. There are two C-40Cs based in Washington D.C., and two at Andrews Air Force Base. Its range is 4,500 to 5,000 miles. It can hold 42 to 111 passengers, based on configuration. Each cost $70 million. > > Pelosi has flown back to California once since becoming speaker. She took a commercial flight there, and returned on one of the 12-seaters. > > Hastert used all of these planes except the C-40. Since he lived in Illinois, even the smallest plane could take him there without refueling. The smallest plane would not be able to reach California from Washington, **and headwinds or other poor weather conditions could require the 12-seaters to stop for refueling.** > > Navy Cmdr. Jefrey Gordon, a Pentagon spokesman, said Wednesday that Pelosi would be offered “shuttle service for no more than 10 passengers between Washington and San Francisco only based on aircraft availability.” > > “This does not guarantee nonstop transport,” Gordon said. > > Sources: The Air Force and the Associated Press The reason why yours is a crummy argument is that you continue to ignore that the range mentioned is usually for optimal flight conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2007, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pelosis-palatial-plane-preference-piggishness-or-republican-pablam/391385/146 "2007-02-12T03:59:31Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] :rolleyes: That is an opinion piece parroting the republican accusations. But NPR did ask: [http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7283476](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7283476) The reason why yours is a crummy argument is that you continue to ignore that the range mentioned is usually for optimal flight conditions. [/QUOTE] Please rephrase that statement. What are you saying is a crummy argument. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2007, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pelosis-palatial-plane-preference-piggishness-or-republican-pablam/391385/147 "2007-02-12T04:10:55Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] Please rephrase that statement. What are you saying is a crummy argument. [/QUOTE] So far yours is like this: It is in the book commander, this plane can make it from Washington to California. What is that? That I’m ignoring that weather conditions can make us stop to refuel? Why commander, that sounds like fighting words! Here, follow these crumbs… ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2007, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pelosis-palatial-plane-preference-piggishness-or-republican-pablam/391385/148 "2007-02-12T04:12:41Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] So far yours is like this: It is in the book commander, this plane can make it from Washington to California. What is that? That I’m ignoring that weather conditions can make us stop to refuel? Why commander, that sounds like fighting words! Here, follow these crumbs… [/QUOTE] WTH? in English please. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2007, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pelosis-palatial-plane-preference-piggishness-or-republican-pablam/391385/149 "2007-02-12T04:14:23Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] WTH? in English please. [/QUOTE] That is my impression of you if you have not noticed yet. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2007, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pelosis-palatial-plane-preference-piggishness-or-republican-pablam/391385/150 "2007-02-12T04:23:29Z")
“Headwinds”, my ass! Next yoi’ll be telling us it takes more fuel for a boat to go upriver than to go downriver, when any fool knows its the same water! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2007, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pelosis-palatial-plane-preference-piggishness-or-republican-pablam/391385/151 "2007-02-12T04:32:15Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] “Headwinds”, my ass! Next yoi’ll be telling us it takes more fuel for a boat to go upriver than to go downriver, when any fool knows its the same water! [/QUOTE] Aah good, I was beginning to wonder if someone would get it. Mmmm, it could be that parody or imagination is not captured by the extreme partisans still complaining. To help them, that was me just imagining them talking to the commander and/or captain that said that it is not true that the c20 can always do the non stop trip, and my impression remains: The extreme right is even willing in this partisan attract to teach grandma Lindberg [del]to suck eggs[/del] what a modified plane can do or not. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2007, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pelosis-palatial-plane-preference-piggishness-or-republican-pablam/391385/152 "2007-02-12T06:12:29Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] “Headwinds”, my ass! Next yoi’ll be telling us it takes more fuel for a boat to go upriver than to go downriver, when any fool knows its the same water! [/QUOTE] So are you planning on lecturing a pilot about enroute headwind components? How about a person who has dealt with flight delays for 25 years? I start my day by pulling up en route winds at various altitudes across the country. The lesser of the C-20’s has a range of 3460 nm. Max cruise speed is 478 knots but it would be dialed back to 427 to conserve fuel. It climbs at 4200 feet per minute so I would use a ground speed of 400 knots for the climb or you can ignore the climb calculation altogether due to the length of flight time and lower cruise speed. Distance from IAD to SFO is 2100 nm. I gave everything in matching units to make the math easier. a C-20 will burn [1,069 gallons](http://www.aspenglobalwarming.com/pdf/09AirTravelGA&Notes.pdf) on a 1000 nm trip. That’s block to block. The plane carries 28,090 lbs of useable fuel or approx 4,494 gallons. Aircraft distance is measured in time and you’ll need an hour reserve fuel plus alternate destination. I’d choose Reno as an alternate which is 30 minutes away in the opposite direction which means you’ll have a tail wind equal to the headwinds you wish to lecture me about. Winter winds usually hover around 100 knots at 30,000 feet but occasionally go higher in spots so you can use 150 knots for 1/3 of your journey. You have enough information to calculate a flight plan. Aaaaaannnd go. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2007, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pelosis-palatial-plane-preference-piggishness-or-republican-pablam/391385/153 "2007-02-12T06:42:38Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] So are you planning on lecturing a pilot about enroute headwind components? How about a person who has dealt with flight delays for 25 years? [/QUOTE] As I said before, you are willing to lecture a captain and commander that told reporters that the lesser planes can not guarantee a non-stop flight, so contact them if you don’t agree. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2007, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pelosis-palatial-plane-preference-piggishness-or-republican-pablam/391385/154 "2007-02-12T06:59:08Z")
Also, you are once again ignoring that these are not common c-20’s, I bet the extra weight of special communication and security equipment are some of the reasons why official range values are not taken as gospel when those modified planes are operating. And why the commander reported that they cannot guarantee a non-stop trip. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2007, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pelosis-palatial-plane-preference-piggishness-or-republican-pablam/391385/155 "2007-02-12T07:53:47Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] …You have enough information to calculate a flight plan. Aaaaaannnd go. [/QUOTE] I haven’t any doubt that my math skills are central to the issue, but for the life of me, can’t remember why. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2007, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pelosis-palatial-plane-preference-piggishness-or-republican-pablam/391385/156 "2007-02-12T09:21:12Z")
We still have some unknowns, so I don’t see why some of you are taking such a high road here. Maybe **Magiver** (or someone else) can tell us, from his experience, 1)how much might a plane’s weight change due to how it is outfitted compared to what is listed? 2) For that amount of additional weight, how much is fuel efficiency and range effected? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2007, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pelosis-palatial-plane-preference-piggishness-or-republican-pablam/391385/157 "2007-02-12T12:59:59Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] We still have some unknowns, so I don’t see why some of you are taking such a high road here. Maybe **Magiver** (or someone else) can tell us, from his experience, 1)how much might a plane’s weight change due to how it is outfitted compared to what is listed? 2) For that amount of additional weight, how much is fuel efficiency and range effected? [/QUOTE] I don’t think that is germane. A more relevant explanation from him would be “Why would others with putative expertise on the topic tell the Sergeant at Arms or Pelosi herself that the plane cannot be guaranteed to make it without refueling?” Can our resident expert answer that relevant question and leave the irrelevant questions aside? Of course, this whole thing is irrelevant, having been trumped up by the right. The childish level of outrage material they are reduced to fabricating at this point is sort of sad to see, to be sure. It’s kind of like seeing the hated rival Cleveland Browns reduced to going 1 and 15 every year. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2007, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pelosis-palatial-plane-preference-piggishness-or-republican-pablam/391385/158 "2007-02-12T18:45:46Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] The childish level of outrage material they are reduced to fabricating at this point is sort of sad to see, to be sure. It’s kind of like seeing the hated rival Cleveland Browns reduced to going 1 and 15 every year. [/QUOTE] It’s early in the election season; I’m sure the GOP is saving their choicer cuts of meat for 2008, when it will be sufficiently putrid and moldy to get their base all a-droolin’ when it’s tossed to them. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pelosis-palatial-plane-preference-piggishness-or-republican-pablam/391385/159 "2007-02-13T00:43:00Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] I haven’t any doubt that my math skills are central to the issue, but for the life of me, can’t remember why. [/QUOTE] It wasn’t meant to be a math test. It’s a simple word problem that involves adding, subtracting multiplying or dividing. I provided all the numbers you need in standard units of measure so there’s no converting. If you’re not sure how to calculate headwinds just assume the plane is always flying straight into them. You subtract the headwind from the cruise speed and conversly you add a tailwind to the cruise speed. I padded the minimum fuel requirements to your benefit. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pelosis-palatial-plane-preference-piggishness-or-republican-pablam/391385/160 "2007-02-13T03:18:11Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Now IF she had asked for the larger plane and the C-20 can easily make the trip (which is still unclear), [/QUOTE] The way I figure it the C-20 would arrive at San Franciso with 2.5 hours left of useable fuel. This assumes a 100 nmph headwind for half the distance and 50 nmph for the other half. I don’t think headwinds like that are at all unreasonable because of my computed total flight time. I calculated 5.2 hours which is about the east to west time for commercial airliners. If the headwinds are stronger the margin would be smaller and its entirely possible, and I think reasonable, that the Air Force didn’t want to guarantee that the nonstop east-west trip could be made safely under all wind conditions. I don’t think 100 nmph[jet stream winds](http://ww2010.atmos.uiuc.edu/(Gh)/guides/mtr/cyc/upa/jet.rxml) for half the distance is at all unreasonable given the map in the cite. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pelosis-palatial-plane-preference-piggishness-or-republican-pablam/391385.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pelosis-palatial-plane-preference-piggishness-or-republican-pablam/391385.md?page=9)