# Pence harangued by cast of Hamilton **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 19, 2016, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436 "2016-11-19T16:46:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2016, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/201 "2016-11-21T17:42:41Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I’m doing no such thing. My position has nothing to do with politics. I object to any audience member being called out by name like this. They did not consent to become part of the show. It is rude to treat an audience member this way. I agree it’s rude, but sometimes being rude is okay or even good. I think this is an example of one of those times in which being rude is okay. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/202 "2016-11-21T17:46:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I agree it’s rude, but sometimes being rude is okay or even good. I think this is an example of one of those times in which being rude is okay. I guess it depends on what your goal is, as I said earlier. If your goal is to engage the other side in debate or discussion, then I doubt this was accomplished. If your goal was to preach to the choir and make yourself feel superior, then Mission Accomplished. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2016, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/203 "2016-11-21T18:05:52Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I’m doing no such thing. My position has nothing to do with politics. I object to any audience member being called out by name like this. They did not consent to become part of the show. It is rude to treat an audience member this way. I’m sure you avoid causing consternation among the little old ladies at your dinner theater performances. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2016, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/204 "2016-11-21T18:16:52Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I’m doing no such thing. My position has nothing to do with politics. I object to any audience member being called out by name like this. They did not consent to become part of the show. It is rude to treat an audience member this way. I’m reminded of the child in the fable of the emperor’s new clothes. When the child spoke out, even if he did so in the kindest way possible, I’m sure it was embarrassing to the emperor. Seeing some of the opinions in this thread, I wonder if some folks may have suggested that the child arrange a private meeting with the emperor to raise his concerns in private. Under the theory that parades are safe spaces where it just isn’t appropriate for people to raise such issues, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2016, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/205 "2016-11-21T18:18:40Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > I’m sure you avoid causing consternation among the little old ladies at your dinner theater performances. How many times have you been on stage? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2016, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/206 "2016-11-21T18:20:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I guess it depends on what your goal is, as I said earlier. If your goal is to engage the other side in debate or discussion, then I doubt this was accomplished. If your goal was to preach to the choir and make yourself feel superior, then Mission Accomplished. More often than not, the voting public is captive audience to the politician. The politicians are given a venue, a podium, a mic and largely an adoring audience. Rarely does the public have the opportunity to speak truth to power with the tables reversed. I see nothing wrong with doing so, respectfully. As was the case here. The cast, in speaking to the VP, were not in fact preaching to the choir, nor do I think they were on a mission to feel superior; Only to be heard. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2016, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/207 "2016-11-21T18:21:12Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m reminded of the child in the fable of the emperor’s new clothes. When the child spoke out, even if he did so in the kindest way possible, I’m sure it was embarrassing to the emperor. Seeing some of the opinions in this thread, I wonder if some folks may have suggested that the child arrange a private meeting with the emperor to raise his concerns in private. Under the theory that parades are safe spaces where it just isn’t appropriate for people to raise such issues, of course. A participant in a parade agrees to be part of the show. An audience member does not. This is not complicated. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/208 "2016-11-21T18:35:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I guess it depends on what your goal is, as I said earlier. If your goal is to engage the other side in debate or discussion, then I doubt this was accomplished. If your goal was to preach to the choir and make yourself feel superior, then Mission Accomplished. By Pence’s response, it sounds like the debate/discussion goal might have been met. As far as Trump himself, I’m doubtful that engagement with any hope of a productive discussion is possible. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2016, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/209 "2016-11-21T18:36:44Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > A participant in a parade agrees to be part of the show. An audience member does not. This is not complicated. Yes, it’s rude, and sometimes rudeness is okay. Sometimes the only way to be heard by those in power is to be rude. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2016, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/210 "2016-11-21T18:36:59Z")
Gov. Pence was the running mate of a Presidential candidate whose campaign blew through all previous limits (at least those in my lifetime, anyway) on behavior by a Presidential candidate and campaign. If it hadn’t been for that, **Oakminster** , you might have a case. But after Trump has blown the barn door to smithereens and driven the horses out, it’s kinda ridiculous for him (or anyone else, IMHO) to expect everyone else to feel constrained by the line where the barn door used to be. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2016, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/211 "2016-11-21T18:38:32Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > More often than not, the voting public is captive audience to the politician. The politicians are given a venue, a podium, a mic and largely an adoring audience. Rarely does the public have the opportunity to speak truth to power with the tables reversed. There are typically protesters present at every political rally during the campaign. But I’m not seeing how that relates to this incident anyway. > [@](#): > > I see nothing wrong with doing so, respectfully. As was the case here. > > The cast, in speaking to the VP, were not in fact preaching to the choir, nor do I think they were on a mission to feel superior; Only to be heard. Although I thought it was rude, I wouldn’t say it was “wrong”. As noted, I said they had every right to do what they did. But I’m at a loss as to how one person calls another person a bigot in a respectful manner, in public. And just to note, there is also nothing wrong with doing something in order to feel better about oneself. I’m certain that cast member did feel better. I’m just wondering if his goal was to accomplish more than that. If it was, I doubt he was successful. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2016, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/212 "2016-11-21T18:46:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > There are typically protesters present at every political rally during the campaign. But I’m not seeing how that relates to this incident anyway. The campaigning is over. The cast spoke to the VP-elect. They could have written a letter and cc’d the media. Doubt it would be read, or printed in light of all the other criticism being aired all over the media. Instead, they chose to use the power of their own platform. Seems to have been effective/successful because we’re talking about it now. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2016, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/213 "2016-11-21T18:49:33Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > How many times have you been on stage? I’ve never been on stage. But I’m not using my “theatrical career” as an arguing point. (Not that there’s anything _wrong_ with Dinner Theater.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2016, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/214 "2016-11-21T19:00:22Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Seems to have been effective/successful because we’re talking about it now. I would measure success by the number of people he convicted to change their minds on the subject. I’m not seeing any Trump supporters here saying the realize the error of their ways. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2016, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/215 "2016-11-21T19:03:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I would measure success by the number of people he convicted to change their minds on the subject. I’m not seeing any Trump supporters here saying the realize the error of their ways. Such a change of heart, when possible, is a long and drawn out process, and usually involves many such statements and conversations and experiences. Little things like this are necessary to add up to a much bigger whole message. Add all of these sorts of things together, and I think that’s how minds got changed on interracial marriage, gay marriage, and similar issues. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2016, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/216 "2016-11-21T19:13:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I would measure success by the number of people he convicted to change their minds on the subject. I’m not seeing any Trump supporters here saying the realize the error of their ways. I would not use that as my metric. I would measure success by whether or not it resonated with the VP-elect and perhaps has a direct impact on policies coming from his administration. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2016, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/217 "2016-11-21T19:13:54Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I would measure success by the number of people he convicted to change their minds on the subject. I’m not seeing any Trump supporters here saying the realize the error of their ways. The Trump supporters are on Facebook, threatening to boycott _Hamilton_. Yeah, as if. The “harangue” was written by creative people wishing to express themselves. They did. Giving Trump a chance to prove, once again, that he’s a whiny fool. And for Pence to reveal that he’s got a spark of decency in him. (Maybe just the one, but it’s better than nothing.) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2016, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/218 "2016-11-21T19:18:29Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > A participant in a parade agrees to be part of the show. An audience member does not. This is not complicated. And in my tortured anaology, the people in the crowd likely didn’t agree to have some upstart child stealing the show. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2016, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/219 "2016-11-21T19:20:57Z")
And for the record, I’m still waiting for anyone to say what specifically was said that has so offensive that it constitutes a “harangue” or whatever term one may wish to use to describe a political attack. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2016, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/220 "2016-11-21T19:22:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I would measure success by the number of people he convicted to change their minds on the subject. I’m not seeing any Trump supporters here saying the realize the error of their ways. …they weren’t talking to Trump supporters, and they weren’t trying to change Trump supporters minds. So your measure of success is kinda stupid. They wanted to talk to the Vice President Elect of the United States. The Trump Empire are in a “bubble.” Opportunities to talk directly to members of this administration have been and will be frighteningly rare. Pence made a decision to come and see this play. This gave the cast and the producers the opportunity to directly address the Vice President Elect of the United States, and to tell him about their concerns. So they accomplished their goal. They have done something that no-one else has been able to do. They have expressed the fears of many Americans directly to the person who needed to hear it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436.md?page=12)