# Pence harangued by cast of Hamilton **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 19, 2016, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436 "2016-11-19T16:46:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2016, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/241 "2016-11-22T04:06:33Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > In my own defense, I thought we were in the Pit until **Eyebrows of Doom** got modded. It seems that’s where all Trump-related threads end up. Apologies if I contributed here in an inflammatory way. Didn’t mean you! > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Really? When he said that the cast was anxious that Pence’s administration wouldn’t protect them, was that because he thought the administration was going to be lazy, underfunded or understaffed? What would be the cause of Pence’s administration’s failure to protect them? Not only mustn’t we call bigots bigots: now we mustn’t even suggest that they’d engage in the behavior they’re on record as supporting, if that behavior is probably gonna be motivated by bigotry. Could we just wrap them in bubble wrap or something so we could be certain not to hurt their feelings? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2016, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/242 "2016-11-22T04:44:17Z")
I’m mostly bemused by the idea that this was “rude.” Y’all weren’t paying attention to the election couple weeks back? Politeness and civility were voted down by the body politic. This is Trump America now. Pence is lucky the entire show wasn’t just the cast screaming “cocksucker” in his face for two hours. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2016, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/243 "2016-11-22T04:50:21Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m mostly bemused by the idea that this was “rude.” Y’all weren’t paying attention to the election couple weeks back? Politeness and civility were voted down by the body politic. This is Trump America now. Pence is lucky the entire show wasn’t just the cast screaming “cocksucker” in his face for two hours. Wait until _Deadwood_ gets made into a play. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2016, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/244 "2016-11-22T05:35:29Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I don’t find Hamilton’s actions remotely offensive - in fact, they were quite respectful. > > However, when did lecturing anyone make any difference for anything? Sometimes I feel like liberals have abandoned ‘‘what actually works to effect social change’’ for ‘‘what makes me feel better.’’ I’m sure the cast really felt they needed to get that off their chest, but did it really do any good for anyone other than themselves? > > Furthermore, did Pence really not already know that the cast of Hamilton is diametrically opposed to everything he stands for? The whole damned musical is a form of protest. Why the need to go out of the way and say that when it’s bleeding obvious? He might have been moved by the musical itself but the lecture may have totally turned him off to the message. Shaming people for their value system, regardless of how fucked up that value system may be, accomplishes exactly jack shit by way of changing hearts and minds. I do not get this reply at all, because I cannot see any shaming or lecturing in what was said at all. Here is what was said (minus the parts to get his attention, which were even more respectful) We, sir, we are the diverse America, who are alarmed and anxious that your new administration will not protect us, our planet, our children, our parents or defend us and uphold our inalienable rights, But we truly hope that this show has inspired you to uphold our American values and to work on behalf of all of us, That’s just some people saying they are scared, and then saying they hope their fears are unfounded. How is that supposed to be a lecture? How is that supposed to be shaming? What seems to be happening now is that even the most polite things, like taking a knee (a sign of deference) to the flag is somehow some great affront and is some horrible attack. People being perfectly respectful is haranguing or lecturing or shaming. And I’d really like to know what we did do that “worked” back in the past. What I learned in history was that there were a lot of speeches like this to those in power. Sure, there was also a lot of civil disobedience and violence, but I’m hoping we don’t have to go that far again. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2016, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/245 "2016-11-22T05:54:05Z")
I think Pence had a great response, when, while being harangued by the Hamilton cast, he told one of his children, “This is what freedom looks like” (or something to that effect.) ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2016, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/246 "2016-11-22T06:09:08Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I do not get this reply at all, because I cannot see any shaming or lecturing in what was said at all. Here is what was said (minus the parts to get his attention, which were even more respectful) > > We, sir, we are the diverse America, who are alarmed and anxious that your new administration will not protect us, our planet, our children, our parents or defend us and uphold our inalienable rights, > > But we truly hope that this show has inspired you to uphold our American values and to work on behalf of all of us, > > That’s just some people saying they are scared, and then saying they hope their fears are unfounded. How is that supposed to be a lecture? How is that supposed to be shaming? > > What seems to be happening now is that even the most polite things, like taking a knee (a sign of deference) to the flag is somehow some great affront and is some horrible attack. People being perfectly respectful is haranguing or lecturing or shaming. > > And I’d really like to know what we did do that “worked” back in the past. What I learned in history was that there were a lot of speeches like this to those in power. Sure, there was also a lot of civil disobedience and violence, but I’m hoping we don’t have to go that far again. It’s fair to say that my views on this have changed since I made that post. I think the Hamilton thing isn’t as relevant to my main point as I originally thought. There is a certain liberal tone in general that I view as counterproductive. I’m more referring to endless Facebook lectures and the refusal to meet people on their own terms. Yeah, conservatives do it too! And it’s not changing any liberal minds, is it? I also want to know what works. In fact that’s all I really care about at this point. How do we make effective, non violent change? I don’t know if protests are the best approach, but currently I have no better ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2016, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/247 "2016-11-22T06:49:36Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I’ve done more than “Dinner Theatre”. Not that it’s any of your business. Sorry. Your professional experience is less relevant here than your political leanings. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2016, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/248 "2016-11-22T07:59:36Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Sorry. Your professional experience is less relevant here than your political leanings. 😃 Whatevs. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2016, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/249 "2016-11-22T10:08:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Really? When he said that the cast was anxious that Pence’s administration wouldn’t protect them, was that because he thought the administration was going to be lazy, underfunded or understaffed? What would be the cause of Pence’s administration’s failure to protect them? Pence’s record in Indiana, that is, the things that has actually said _and done_ indicate that he is not simply neglectful towards LGBQT people he actively works against them. He legalized discrimination in Indiana (since walked back _slightly)_ He doesn’t want to tolerate the LGBQT, he wants to reprogram them to be in conformance with his beliefs. Protect them? By his current record he wants to _eliminate_ them. > [@Velocity](#): > > I think Pence had a great response, when, while being harangued by the Hamilton cast, he told one of his children, “This is what freedom looks like” (or something to that effect.) GAH! Does no one look at the FACTS anymore? _The cast NEVER “harangued” Pence!_ That was the AUDIENCE. The AUDIENCE, not the performers who booed Pence, who did anything that could have been considered a “harangue”. Indeed, the cast asked the audience not to do that. The comment was that’s what freedom _sounds_ like, and it was in reference to what the _audience_ did. Not to come down on you in particular, **Velocity** but I’m heartily tired of the careless way people discuss reality. From the moment Pence walked in he was greeted with hostility by some of the _audience_ yet he chose to stay. No one forced him to be there, in public. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2016, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/250 "2016-11-22T10:23:40Z")
It’s taking longer than we thought. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2016, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/251 "2016-11-22T11:38:56Z")
Pence was in public, and he was free to leave if he didn’t want to be there. Even if he was treated rudely (and he was, but just barely, by the cast – the choice to call him out publicly was slightly rude, but their words were respectful and only slightly accusatory). But even if their words had been harsh or profane, they have a First Amendment right to express them, twice over: their freedom of speech and their right to petition government for a redress of grievances. This, to me, is unremarkable. That Trump evidently sees it differently is also not a surprise. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2016, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/252 "2016-11-22T11:54:35Z")
Related story: [Canada’s Hamilton Theatre inundated with angry Americans mistaking it for ‘Hamilton’](http://www.sfgate.com/weird/article/Canada-Hamilton-Theatre-mistaken-musical-Hamilton-10628414.php) > [@](#): > > Ontario’s oldest theater, the Hamilton Theatre, has been slammed with angry tweets sent by people upset about last week’s speech by the cast of the Broadway musical ‘Hamilton.’ ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2016, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/253 "2016-11-22T12:40:44Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Related story: > > [Canada’s Hamilton Theatre inundated with angry Americans mistaking it for ‘Hamilton’](http://www.sfgate.com/weird/article/Canada-Hamilton-Theatre-mistaken-musical-Hamilton-10628414.php) For those of you in this thread that are still having problems with what the word means, _this_ is inapropriate haranguing ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2016, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/254 "2016-11-22T15:01:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Not only mustn’t we call bigots bigots: now we mustn’t even suggest that they’d engage in the behavior they’re on record as supporting, if that behavior is probably gonna be motivated by bigotry. > > Could we just wrap them in bubble wrap or something so we could be certain not to hurt their feelings? I think wrapping them in straw would be more appropriate. I’ve said at lest twice in this thread that they have every right to say what they said. The person I was responding to claimed that there was nothing implying bigotry. I disagreed, and explained why. > [@](#): > > Bricker Pence was in public, and he was free to leave if he didn’t want to be there. Even if he was treated rudely (and he was, but just barely, by the cast – the choice to call him out publicly was slightly rude, but their words were respectful and only slightly accusatory). But even if their words had been harsh or profane, they have a First Amendment right to express them, twice over: their freedom of speech and their right to petition government for a redress of grievances. OK, on that I’m pretty much in agreement. There was an element of rudeness, but of course 1st amendment trumps that every time. > [@](#): > > This, to me, is unremarkable. That Trump evidently sees it differently is also not a surprise. Agreed that Trump’s response was entirely inappropriate. He, of course, also has 1st amendment rights but as president-elect his asking (bordering on demanding) an apology just shows him to the whiny little bitch that he is. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2016, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/255 "2016-11-22T15:05:27Z")
Aside from that, Mrs. Pence, how was the play? ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2016, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/256 "2016-11-22T15:08:13Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Aside from that, Mrs. Pence, how was the play? “The Lady doth protest too much.” ? ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/257 "2016-11-22T15:13:07Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m mostly bemused by the idea that this was “rude.” Y’all weren’t paying attention to the election couple weeks back? Politeness and civility were voted down by the body politic. This is Trump America now. Pence is lucky the entire show wasn’t just the cast screaming “cocksucker” in his face for two hours. Yeah, but when they go low…crap, I forget the rest. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > For those of you in this thread that are still having problems with what the word means, _this_ is inapropriate haranguing At first I thought you were going to tell us what “inundated” means, because the article mentioned only included a single tweet. I’m sure there were more, but based on their Twitter mentions over the last day, I’d say the Hamilton Theatre has been inundated with support. Probably the best PR thing that’s happened for them. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2016, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/258 "2016-11-22T16:14:45Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Pence’s record in Indiana, that is, the things that has actually said _and done_ indicate that he is not simply neglectful towards LGBQT people he actively works against them. He legalized discrimination in Indiana (since walked back _slightly)_ He doesn’t want to tolerate the LGBQT, he wants to reprogram them to be in conformance with his beliefs. > > Protect them? By his current record he wants to _eliminate_ them. > GAH! > > Does no one look at the FACTS anymore? _The cast NEVER “harangued” Pence!_ That was the AUDIENCE. The AUDIENCE, not the performers who booed Pence, who did anything that could have been considered a “harangue”. Indeed, the cast asked the audience not to do that. > > The comment was that’s what freedom _sounds_ like, and it was in reference to what the _audience_ did. > > Not to come down on you in particular, **Velocity** but I’m heartily tired of the careless way people discuss reality. From the moment Pence walked in he was greeted with hostility by some of the _audience_ yet he chose to stay. No one forced him to be there, in public. Whooops, my bad…sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2016, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436/259 "2016-11-22T18:59:58Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I think Pence had a great response, when, while being harangued by the Hamilton cast, he told one of his children, “This is what freedom looks like” (or something to that effect.) He said that as they were booed when they entered. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pence-harangued-by-cast-of-hamilton/772436.md?page=12)