# Penile Lengthening Column **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 20, 2000, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penile-lengthening-column/37716 "2000-10-20T22:33:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11

**Author:** ![Jack\_Dean\_Tyler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/46a35a/32.png) [@Jack\_Dean\_Tyler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Dean_Tyler)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2000, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penile-lengthening-column/37716/201 "2000-10-30T23:16:41Z")

Esprix, \> So what does Jack have to say about us homos and the Wonderful World of Foreskins?\< ``` Well, I want to thank the gay men who got this foreskin restoration thing started in the mid 80's. You really helped out. I want to thank gay men for their very high representation in the anti-circ movement. Gay men have been of CRUCIAL importance in getting everyone alerted to this sexual holocaust known as circumcision. I think that without gay men, we would have ended up with a planet that was 100% Cirked (at least as far as males go). I'm very worried about what the results will be when the day comes that there aren't any gay men any more. That REALLY scares me. ``` ---

**Author:** ![porcupine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac91a4/32.png) [@porcupine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/porcupine)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2000, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penile-lengthening-column/37716/202 "2000-10-30T23:25:02Z")

Why would you think there would ever be a day when there aren’t any gay men anymore? ---

**Author:** ![absoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@absoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/absoul)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2000, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penile-lengthening-column/37716/203 "2000-10-30T23:53:31Z")

> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jack Dean Tyler \* > \*\*absoul, > > \>It would be one thing to argue the advantages and disadvantages of this process that you hate, but it is another to attack and upset persons who have been circumcised. \< > > ``` > I don't attack anyone just because they have been attacked by a circumciser. I feel that I must try to save those that have not yet been victimized, though. Unfortunately, it is a psychological phenomenon that has been observed in both male and female circumcision victims that they will try to create other victims. > > ** > > ``` Yes, you have attacked persons directly. What do you call this – Chronos, \>I have just as much sensation in my foreskin as I do in the skin anywhere else on my body, but my glans is easily more sensitive than any other part except possibly my tongue (I’ve never done comparison trials between the two). \< JDT \>It sounds like there may be a problem with your penis OR, astraeus, \>I am circumcised. My wife is currently pregnant with our first child, who, according to the ultrasound is a boy, and we intend to have him circumcised. \< JDT \>When he grows up he will be a freak (won’t be so many circumcised men when he grows up) and he will hate your guts for what you did to him (sorry to be so blunt). And, you will rationalize that it was God’s will that you force your helpless son to have part of his penis amputated. And, the damage done to your relationship with your son will work itself out according to God’s plan. Is it any wonder that such insanity as circumcision has caught on in such a non-intellectual environment? I was actually wrong in my last post. You are not just attacking circumsised men, you attack uncircumsised men as well. ---

**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2000, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penile-lengthening-column/37716/204 "2000-10-30T23:55:11Z")

> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jack Dean Tyler \* > [snips] > Do you know the results of circumcision? Obviously, you do not since no one has ever studied the physiology of the foreskin. [snips] > \*\* I have to comment on this, **Jack** , as you’ve repeated this at least a half-dozen times. To repeat, **“No one has ever studied the physiology of the foreskin.”** We clear that this is your position? Then how the hell do you know so much about the foreskin? Oh, I forgot, you have your two years rubbing dicks, a lifetime of quiet, joyless sex, and some “cutting edge” European studies that you magically have access to, but apparently aren’t on the 'Net, although everything else in the world is. BTW, before you call me dogmatic, I am anti-circumcision. (Well, anti enough. My kids aren’t going to be circumcised. I don’t care what the rest of the world does.) Man, reading this thread has rekindled a desire to actually use my psych degree. I’ll be back after I browse through the DSM-IV (it’s been a while - are we up to the DSM-V yet?). There is an obvious syndrome evident here. Sua ---

**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penile-lengthening-column/37716/205 "2000-10-31T00:04:04Z")

[Moderator Hat: ON] absoul: If the moderators decide that Jack has directly insulted somebody, then we will take action. That is not part of the debate here. Leave the moderating to the moderators. * * * David B, SDMB Great Debates Moderator [Moderator Hat: OFF] ---

**Author:** ![Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanook_of_the_North_Shore)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penile-lengthening-column/37716/206 "2000-10-31T00:19:50Z")

> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jack Dean Tyler \* > **I want to help circumcised men. I want the Fed. government to spend at least half of the national budget to study this matter and correct it in all American men who have been affected by this nonsense.** You aren’t serious are you? Please tell me you aren’t serious. That has got to be the most insane thing I’ve read yet(well, maybe). Do you have any concept of just how much money that is? Do you really honestly feel that circumcision is worth more money than say…national defense? Cancer research? Social security? ---

**Author:** ![Jack\_Dean\_Tyler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/46a35a/32.png) [@Jack\_Dean\_Tyler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Dean_Tyler)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penile-lengthening-column/37716/207 "2000-10-31T00:34:02Z")

porcupine, \> Why would you think there would ever be a day when there aren’t any gay men anymore? \< ``` Because it's heterosexuals that actually have children, unfortunately. In the near future, it will probably be possible to know when a woman is carrying a homosexual child. That will almost inevitably result in an abortion. Religious people will block the means such as cloning or same sex parentage that would allow gay men to keep their numbers up. This will be the next great disaster that our society faces. I predict that it will be an even bigger disaster than the sexual mutilation of America. All because people will never abandon their programming in dogma. ``` ---

**Author:** ![absoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@absoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/absoul)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penile-lengthening-column/37716/208 "2000-10-31T00:41:43Z")

I apologize to you, DavidB. I will let you do your job. I am just trying to find out what he hopes to accomplish by this bizzare spectacle. I should have used the word -insulted- instead of attacked. He asked for my cites and I gave it to him in his own thread. ---

**Author:** ![Jack\_Dean\_Tyler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/46a35a/32.png) [@Jack\_Dean\_Tyler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Dean_Tyler)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penile-lengthening-column/37716/209 "2000-10-31T00:45:15Z")

Nanook of the North Shore, \>You aren’t serious are you? Please tell me you aren’t serious. That has got to be the most insane thing I’ve read yet(well, maybe). \< ``` Oh, I'm very serious. We have a sexually mutilated population with its ensuing psychological damage. I can't imagine a greater threat to national security. The 1960's in America was the first time in human history that the world has ever seen a large population of circumcised men. We saw the results and they weren't pretty. In my opinion, America is an unstable society as a result of this absurd experiment. At least half of the national budget should be dedicated toward fixing these men so that America can survive long enough to get a few intact generations in to replace the mutilated ones. ``` ---

**Author:** ![2nd\_Law](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/f475e1/32.png) [@2nd\_Law](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2nd_Law)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penile-lengthening-column/37716/210 "2000-10-31T00:46:23Z")

> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jack Dean Tyler \* > In the near future, it will probably be possible to know when a woman is carrying a homosexual child. That will almost inevitably result in an abortion. It is getting more and more difficult for anyone to respond to your posts **without** being insulting, JDT. You just stated that homosexuality is purely determined by genetics, and that almost all mothers would have abortions if they knew their children would be homosexual. You can’t conceivably back either of those assertions up with any kind of proof. ---

**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penile-lengthening-column/37716/211 "2000-10-31T00:58:10Z")

Jack has gotten what he wanted all along (apparently.) 5 pages of constant talk about…_penises._ All about penises. Every possible detail about penises. All initiated by the “penis expert”. Penis penis penis. Happy now, Jack? ---

**Author:** ![Jack\_Dean\_Tyler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/46a35a/32.png) [@Jack\_Dean\_Tyler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Dean_Tyler)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penile-lengthening-column/37716/212 "2000-10-31T01:38:53Z")

2nd Law, \> You just stated that homosexuality is purely determined by genetics, \< ``` I didn't say that, but it probably is genetic. Or, it may have to do with some difference that happens while the baby is growing in his mother. Either way, the cause will be isolated, very soon I should think. ``` \> and that almost all mothers would have abortions if they knew their children would be homosexual.\< ``` Gosh, I hope I'm wrong. I fear that I'm not wrong, though. I mean you won't hear of people who say that they are aborting their child because he is gay. They'll say things such as "now's not the right time to have a child." Kind of like, (wife to circumcised husband) "not now dear, I have a headache." The parents will probably believe their own lies, even. Statistically, one will see the numbers of gays diminish until some critical mass where it becomes acceptable for heteros to say that they don't want a gay for a son because he won't have anybody like him to play with. It's sort of like, I don't want my son to have a foreskin because I want him to be like everybody else. This is sort of how society changes so that it never has to stare directly at the truth, you know? It's just a real low-stress way to meander toward a fiasco. ``` \> You can’t conceivably back either of those assertions up with any kind of proof. \< ``` No, it's just my opinion that the same lack of critical reasoning skills that has resulted in the near extinction of foreskins in America will result in the extinction of gays in America and ultimately the world. A disaster. ``` ---

**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penile-lengthening-column/37716/213 "2000-10-31T01:50:06Z")

> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jack Dean Tyler \* > **I didn’t say that, but it probably is genetic. Or, it may have to do with some difference that happens while the baby is growing in his mother. Either way, the cause will be isolated, very soon I should think.** Maybe we can get Jack and Rook together in a room and settle the gay gene issue once and for all! 🙂 ---

**Author:** ![2nd\_Law](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/f475e1/32.png) [@2nd\_Law](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2nd_Law)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penile-lengthening-column/37716/214 "2000-10-31T02:01:57Z")

> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jack Dean Tyler \* > > No, it’s just my opinion \ And there we have it. Everything you’ve said in this thread is just your opinion, JDT, and you’ve been spouting it all as fact. You have no objective data to back up any of your assertions in this thread, you refer to your opinions as if they were case studies, and you contradict yourself repeatedly. Incidentally, JDT, is [this your home page?](http://uncontrolled.com) as has been suggested in [this thread in the BBQ pit?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=44175) ---

**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penile-lengthening-column/37716/215 "2000-10-31T02:14:56Z")

My word, Jack - your theories certainly are interesting. As I seem to understand, you see the massive rise in circumcisions here in the U.S. since the 60’s as the cause of the rise in violence, lowering of morals, and the general collapse of American culture. Tell me, does this apply to other nations worldwide? Do snipped men around the world act the same? Take Israel, for example. Here’s a country where we can easily assume all males have been circumsized. Do you see this disfigurement as the cause of the rampant violence in Israeli society, of the Israelis’ oppression of their Arab neighbours? Is the cause of all the trouble in the Middle East the fact that a group of cicumcised males has set up a nation, and are acting with willful agression because of their physical make-up? ---

**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penile-lengthening-column/37716/216 "2000-10-31T02:25:03Z")

What is more troublesome? That I waste time actually responding to this because or that I actually enjoy it? This is quite long. But Jack gives me so much ammo… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jack Dean Tyler \* > Are there provable advantages of circumcision? I wasn’t aware of any? OK Jack. Here is all it takes. I’ll do you a favor. Here is a nice, balanced discussion in a peer reviewed journal. It comes down on **your** side. Maybe if you see what a legitimate cite is, then you can go and do it yourself… [The American Association of Pediatricians’ Task Force on Circumcision](http://www.pediatrics.org/cgi/content/full/103/3/686?ijkey=V5Fv1rr9M552Y) > [@](#): > > (me) > I think it is of a little proven benefit, and I will not push it on to any of my patients when I am a pediatrician.\< > > (Jack) > Oh, I think that when you are a pediatrician that you will omit telling the parents of newborns such things as that the physiology of the foreskin has never been tested. You’ll probably omit telling them that there’s a chance that the baby could die. That there’s a chance that the baby could lose his penis. You’ll omit telling the parents that the amount of tissue removed amounts to 15 sq. inches of his adult penis. You’ll omit telling the parents that there are 10,000 to 20,000 never receptors that are going to be amputated. Why don’t you choose a specialty that doesn’t deal with babies? Madre dios, Jack. Again, you use your psychic abilities, this time to tell me what I am going to do in the future. After I criticize circumcision. After I say I will give a balanced, unbiased statement on circumcision. One question – do you see the lunacy in your argument? I understand your vitriol – we all need our own personal crusade. Generally in order to convince people that we are right around here, we make logical arguments for our position. We don’t use our amazing powers of prophecy. Here’s a tip : Try to avoid statements starting like "Oh, I think that when you are a pediatrician, you will do (fill in the blank). > [@](#): > > ``` > Oh, yes, the balance is so close when they haven't even studied the physiology of the penis. And, to think that an objective scientist like yourself would insist that the pro-circumcision people have made a case for circumcision. It's the American education system at work. > > ``` _Sigh_ The foreskin is intensely studied, if because it is the source of many lab fibroblast cultures. People know all the tissue types in there. [PubMed](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed) doesn’t do well with links, but I can give you 100 studies in 20 seconds about penile physiology. I’m gonna try a PubMed link, I don’t know if it will work. [107 articles about the foreskin physiology.](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Link&db=PubMed&dbFrom=PubMed&from_uid=9613002) > [@](#): > > ``` > Which study would this be? I hadn't heard this latest evolution in the ever-changing justification for circumcision. The last I heard was from these people was that the foreskin causes the female sex partner to get cervical cancer. This was based on some terribly flawed study of Jewish people. Then someone figured out that HPV causes cervical cancer. So, I would like to see this latest study that you are talking about, please. > > ``` [39 studies about cervical cancer and circumcision](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Search&db=PubMed&term=cervical+AND+circumcision). Some are reviews, some are primary. > [@](#): > > ``` > Your career would have been over if you did ask that. Dr. Laura Schlessiger says that Jewish people who oppose circumcision are the most anti-Semitic of all. Come to think of it, you said that you oppose circumcision. How does it feel to be an anti-Semite? > > ``` I don’t care what Dr. Laura thinks. I care about my patients, in that I want to do what is best for their health. If she labels me an antisemite, oh well… I don’t buy the party line, but I’ll state it for you. Jewish law explicitly states that we are not to push our rules on others. Circumcision is a covenant between a newborn Jew and God, according to tradition. It is for the Chosen People. Not for everybody. That is the party line. I’m not going to push Jewish law on even my Jewish patients before I push self-determination and good health. Until I have good data for or against, I will not push an issue at all. > [@](#): > > \>But the fact that they didn’t ask it does not imply that circumcision is the reason for this. 1/3 of men can’t ejaculate. \< > No, but it makes one wonder why all of these objective researchers didn’t think to ask such an obvious question before they spent all of this money and effort, doesn’t it? Why do you suppose it is that they didn’t ask that question? Are they just incompetent? Why? Because they weren’t studying that. They were doing a study of ejaculation rates. If you interview 10,000 people, you can’t ask them every question. For you, it is an important question. So go do the study. > [@](#): > > The research establishment refuses to study the foreskin so that’s why these anti-circ sites have come into existence. See 107 citations above. Try PubMed, Jack. It is really easy to use. > [@](#): > > \> Of the ten citations given for this line, none are peer-reviewed articles about circumcision and violence. \< > Well, you take what you get. At least somebody is doing some kind of research. It’s not like the research establishment’s going to help out in any way. In my book, if it isn’t peer-reviewed, it isn’t worth the paper on which it is written. Most scientists feel the same. > [@](#): > > ``` > Why don't you become a researcher on foreskins? You could be famous. > > ``` Fruit fly eyes are actually much more fascinating. > [@](#): > > \> Are Jews covering up evidence from the anti-circumcision people? \< > There is an active cover-up. For example, the coordinator of the Los Angeles chapter of NORM was interviewed on the Leeza show about a year ago. He discussed the damage that is done by circumcision and how foreskin restoration is carried out. The coordinator from NORM had his segment pulled from the Leeza show when it aired on orders from New York. I haven’t checked if this came from Jewish people, though. OK. What organization is covering this up? If there is such a wealth of data and hundreds of millions of men affected, it would take quite a large-scale coverup, donchathink? Interviews get pulled all the time. Dave Letterman doesn’t get to interview the world’s fastest grocery sacker because Emeril was out too long. Sometimes, the interview just doesn’t go well. What evidence do you have that it was specifically pulled because of its content? How do you know it wasn’t a coincidence? Do you have evidence of more than just this one event? > [@](#): > > There are OTHER reasons why everyone is avoiding this area of the body. _ **WHY?** _ > [@](#): > > What you’re saying is nonsense. The pro-circumcision persons have latched onto a dogmatic belief. No evidence can ever be presented that will falsify their beliefs. Surprising, because a leading arm of the medical establishment doesn’t actively promote circumcision anymore. See the AAP cite above. ---

**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penile-lengthening-column/37716/217 "2000-10-31T02:28:20Z")

The link to the American **Academy** of Pediatrician’s Task Force will not work I think if you don’t have access to the journal _Pediatrics_. [Here is a link to the abstract.](http://www.pediatrics.org/cgi/content/abstract/103/3/686?ijkey=V5Fv1rr9M552Y) ---

**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penile-lengthening-column/37716/218 "2000-10-31T02:46:21Z")

Somehow, I keep waiting for Rod Serling to show up and do the voice over for the closing credits as the music starts. Lesee: > [@](#): > > I want to help circumcised men. I want the Fed. government to spend at least half of the national budget to study this matter and correct it in all American men who have been affected by this nonsense. Good idea. If we take all the money from national defence, it wont matter. If anyone invades, we’ll be too busy obsessing about our dicks and trying to streach the skin thereon. > [@](#): > > It isn’t a debate. If it were, it would have been over instantly since by the Principle of Falsifiability, the Pro-Circ people would have been shown to be advocating a dogmatic belief Mr. Pot? I’d like you to meet Mr. Kettle. Mr. Kettle, Mr. Pot. > [@](#): > > Because it’s heterosexuals that actually have children, unfortunately. In the near future, it will probably be possible to know when a woman is carrying a homosexual child. That will almost inevitably result in an abortion. I am a heterosexual male. I can tell you with unequivical certainty, that were such a test possible, and 100% accurate, I wouldn’t even consider an abortion. What kind of sick fuck would you have to be to do that? Or are you implying that it would be mandated by the Zionist, Pro-Circ lobby that really runs the world in conjunction with the Illuminati and the Girl Scouts? Another think, Jack-O. Why is it that you refuse to answer questions put directly to you, yes delight in asking others your own? Answer the questions you are asked. I’m going to do something here you have not demonstrated you deserve. I checked out your homepage. You seem to be a not unatractive guy. Take some time to find a partner who likes you, and put all of your efforts into learning how to please her. Devote yourself to HER needs and wants, and I bet you find that all those things you claim are lacking from sex will be there, foreskin or no foreskin. Stop whining and do something. To butcher Shakespeare- “the fault lies not in our foreskins, but ourselves” I bet THAT was a waste of time. ---

**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penile-lengthening-column/37716/219 "2000-10-31T03:00:03Z")

**Author:** ![Felice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e4f/32.png) [@Felice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Felice)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penile-lengthening-column/37716/220 "2000-10-31T03:35:36Z")

> [@](#): > > Take Israel, for example. Here’s a country where we can easily assume all males have been circumsized. Do you see this disfigurement as the cause of the rampant violence in Israeli society, of the Israelis’ oppression of their Arab neighbours? Is the cause of all the trouble in the Middle East the fact that a group of cicumcised males has set up a nation, and are acting with willful agression because of their physical make-up? Um…but then what about the German oppression of the Jews? I’m thinking WWII, of course, but frankly, the circumcised Jewish people have been persecuted and oppressed by a wide variety of -presumably mostly uncircumcised- people for the past, oh, four thousand years or so. So I don’t think that argument will hold up. Felice [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penile-lengthening-column/37716.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penile-lengthening-column/37716.md?page=12)