Penis size and evolution

(Primarily) Choice

Mods – I believe I’ve quoted less than ¼ of the article here. Plus, there is no copyright notice on the page in question – hoping that’s okay.

Manda JO, thanks for piping up and for the article. I’m sure it was your post that led me here and the article certainly helps in shaping a context, something I was floundering over. Lots of interesting stuff there!

From that article (by Jared Diamond – seems a nice, clean boy. Credentials. However, probably worth remembering it was written in 1996) we have:

Fisher’s runaway selection model theory

<quote>
…all female animals, including humans, do best to mate with males bearing good genes to pass on to their offspring; however, females have no direct way to assess the quality of a male’s genes. But suppose that a female somehow became genetically programmed to be sexually attracted to males with a certain structure that gives those males some advantage at surviving–a slightly longer tail, say, that made the male a better flier. Males with the preferred tail would thereby gain an additional advantage, because they would now transmit their genes to more offspring. Females preferring males with the longer tail would in turn gain an advantage because they would transmit the genes for that elongated structure to their sons, who would in turn survive better and also be chosen by females with such a preference.
</quote>

Amotz Zahavi’s handicap theory of honest signals

<quote>
emphasizes the fact that many structures functioning as body sexual signals are so big or conspicuous that they must indeed constitute a hazard to their owner. For instance, a huge tail not only doesn’t help a bird survive but actually makes life more difficult by making it hard to slip through dense vegetation, take flight, and escape predators. Many sexual signals, Zahavi notes, like a bowerbird’s golden crest, are big, bright, conspicuous structures that tend to attract a predator’s attention. In addition, such structures cost a lot of biosynthetic energy just to grow. As a result, he argues, any male that manages to survive despite such a handicap is, in effect, boasting to females that he must have terrific genes in other respects. When a female sees a male with that handicap, she is guaranteed that he is not cheating by carrying the gene for a big tail and being otherwise inferior. He would not have been able to afford to make the structure, and would not still be alive, unless he was truly superior.
One can think of many human behaviors that surely conform to Zahavi’s handicap theory of honest signals. Any man can tell a woman that he is rich and that therefore she should go to bed with him in the hope of enticing him into marriage–but he might be lying. Only when she sees him throwing away money on useless expensive jewelry and sports cars can she believe his claims of wealth.
</quote>

Astrid Kodric-Brown and James Brown truth in advertising theory

<quote>
Like Zahavi, and unlike Fisher, the Browns emphasize that costly body structures surely represent honest advertisements of quality because an inferior animal could not afford the cost. But while Zahavi sees the costly structures as a handicap to survival, in the Browns’ model they favor survival. The costly structure is thus a doubly honest ad: only a superior animal can afford its cost, and it makes the animal even more superior.
For instance, the antlers of male deer represent a big investment of calcium, phosphate, and calories, yet they are grown and discarded each year. Only the best-nourished males, those that are mature, socially dominant, and free of parasites, can afford that investment. Hence a female deer can regard big antlers as an honest ad for male quality, just as a woman whose boyfriend buys and discards a Porsche each year can believe his claim of being wealthy. But antlers carry a second message not shared with sports cars. Whereas a Porsche does not generate more wealth, big antlers bring their owner access to the best pastures by enabling him to defeat rival males and fight off predators.
</quote>

In that extensive article, Jared Diamond develops ideas about physical body signals like hair, face, muscles, female body fat, etfc., (and offers counter arguments) before finally arriving at the penis:

<quote>
Penis evolution evidently illustrates the operation of runaway selection, just as Fisher postulated. Starting from a 1-inch ancestral ape penis similar to the penis of a modern gorilla, the human penis increased in length by a runaway process, conveying an advantage to its owner as a signal of virility, until its length became limited by counterselection as difficulties with its fit to women’s vaginas became imminent.

<snip…ouch!>

Zoologists studying animals regularly discover that sexual ornaments serve a dual function: to attract mates of the opposite sex and to establish dominance over rivals of the same sex. In that respect, as in many others, we humans still carry the legacy of hundreds of millions of years of vertebrate evolution engraved deeply into our sexuality. Over that legacy, our art, language, and culture have added only a recent veneer.
</quote>

If I read all of that correctly, Jared Diamond is arguing (in 1996) that, indeed, “Male characteristics are a function of female choice” and that human females did get it wrong – at least in terms of their preference for size over sperm count.

Where they got it right was that later generations of women would also make the same false choice, thus ensuring survival of their genes. A self-fulfilling falsehood ?

Reasonable ? - Anything more recent ?

(Primarily) Physiological

Then we have tracer arguing that it’s not an issue of choice but, rather, (at least in part) a physical function – ** tracer**: Is it still Darwinist ?

tracer – The thing I’m struggling over, at the moment, with your Suction Theory is this: To my thinking, what you describe, may, be related to length but isn’t it primarily a girth issue ?

Also, wouldn’t it be equally reasonable (equal to penis length evolution) to think that the vagina would have evolved to be shorter ? – Why one and not the other (IINA Gynaecologist – now there’s a chat up line I haven’t used for some time)

BTW, doesn’t the ability of sperm to swim and hit the jackpot also impinge on your theory ? - Can you resolve or disabuse me of these considerations ?

Then ** grienspace**, also of the Physiology School, suggests that, ultimately, the foetal head influences penis size while also introducing the Baculum to me – thus allowing me to observe: The human penis is big, make no bones about it. BTW, do you have a cite for humans being the only mammal without penile bones?

** Icerigger** – You also fall within the Physiology School. It is interesting that women do have the multiple orgasm thing (one assumes there is an evolutionary reason) and what you suggest seems to support the general Physiology theory.

Conclusion. Help ! I’m conflicted – but kudos to us for not needing the baculum (one assumes, if we did conform with mammal convention, that loss occurred after the size had matured ?).

Thanks everyone. Have I got the wrong end of the stick ? - Where do we go next ?

Pass the headache pills, Matron…

London Calling, I most appreciate your sentiments, but view your empathy with some skepticism. One is, after all, English, no? I suppose you might be of predominately Irish origin…

But seriously folks…

The “handicap” and “advertising” scenarios both have appeal, but overlook a point, I think. While it is true that the inherently superior males with more appealing “display” will have a reproductive advantage, as long as the display is, in fact, a disadvantage, the sucessful reproduction will tilt to those males who are equally genetically superior but with less investment in display. The elk with a “kickin’ rack” will be wolf food much sooner, you have to outrun wolves, you can’t “swordfight” pack hunters.

Perhaps I should have claimed the only ape. See http://www.devbio.com/chap12/link1207.shtml The term “most” mammals is more accurate, however I have been unable to identify one other mammalian species omitting a baculum.

I fail to understand the connection. Please clarify.

Monotremes and members of Order Scandentia (tree shrews; consists of 18 species) do not have a baculum.

Its not how big it is, its if you get to use it !

Having watched Desmond Morris’s “The Naked Ape”, here’s his take on it, which matches Tracer’s pretty accurately:

From a standpoint of male evolutionary survival, what you want to be able to do is sexually out-compete your rivals. One way some mammals do this is with a penis that is A)long enough to place a jet of semen right against the cervix of the female, which allows it to swim past other semen that may already be in there. B)Actually remove any existing semen first.

So the human penis has a head that works like a piston valve - it is tapered towards the back, and has a snug-fitting ridge around the head. So as it pushes in, it pushes past existing semen. When it pulls out, it draws the semen with it, and the suction created helps draw the soft plug out of the cervis. Humans are adapted to thrust for a while before orgasming. So, we basically spend some time cleaning out the vagina and making it receptive for our semen, then we place the semen in the best possible location to ensure pregnancy.

Once you adopt that model, the size of the penis is going to be determined by the physical characteristics of the vagina, which in turn are determined by requirements to pass a large human head, and the plumbing requirements for bearing children.

In other animals, other techniques are used. Some animals have huge amounts of ejaculate, which act to flush out the vagina of any existing materials and just overwhelm the last guy’s stuff. In cats, they have a ‘barb’ which damages the female after coupling so that she’s sore and won’t want to couple with any other cat for a while. Pigs, as I recall, have a little spear of a penis that emits very little semen, but can lock right into the cervix for excellent accuracy.

This may be the strangest message I’ve written in a long time.

Sam Stone wrote:

Cecil Adams on the shape and operation of the pig wiener:
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_060.html

This description has all the earmarks of pigs being a “hard plug” species, like mice. Unlike the “soft plug” that human males leave behind on their mates’ cervix, mouse semen hardens into a full-blown cork-like plug in the female’s vagina. The male mouse’s penis is long and very slender, practically like an ice-pick, because it has to be good at poking through weak spots in this hard plug.

Of course this discussion can not be complete without some reference to the species which holds the title for the longest penis with respect to body size. interestingly enough, it is the hermaphroditic barnacle.
see:
http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/artjan99/barnac.html

Thanks for that, grienspace. I’ve just asked my neighbours what think about the idea and they weren’t overly impressed.

Sam Stone – I know what you mean. Feels a little odd but…it is an anomaly, or it might not be. That’s what keeps me from feeling weird about the subject, make that ‘weirder’.

Hoping to get a sig line out of this thread. Nothing yet, though. Keep ‘plugging’ away !

London_Calling, allow me to clarify myself a bit.

I rather thought that people might get carried away with assuming that the trait of being well-hung is due to natural selection or sexual selection. I’m not saying it isn’t, but there are other possibilities as well. Generally speaking, if a trait exists, there may be many different reasons. It could be an adaptation that has arisen from natural selection (the soft plug removal hypothesis, in this case); it could be a result of sexual selection (most of the rest of the ideas people have been posting); it could be because the trait is a side-effect of a different trait which has been selected for (big penises are a consequence of genital size in everyone increasing due to selection for large vaginas, for example). It may also be a result of genetic drift.

Obviously, some of these things are more likely than others. I have never heard about this soft plug removal concept – if true, then it probably adds a little bit of selective advantage, but I have a hard time imagining that it would have a big enough effect to cause an adaptation in penis size, especially as it depends upon a high level of promiscuity in women to be much of a selective force.

Sexual selection scenarios (how’s that for alliteration?) are also kind of plausible, as long as you know for sure that women prefer big penises. Despite the fact that many men seem convinced of it, I don’t know if any studies have been done which prove it (might be fun to take part in a survey :stuck_out_tongue: – but I digress).

The hypothesis I put forth was meant to be an example of how big penises could arise – er, I mean come to be – eh, it’s too hard not to make a pun – without being directly selected for at all. As Steven Jay Gould points out in his essay “Male Nipples and Clitoral Ripples”(sorry, I forget which book), there is a tendency for us to assume traits are an adaptation, thus narrowing the pool of speculation.

Originally posted by Yumanite

Sexual selection scenarios (how’s that for alliteration?) are also kind of plausible, as long as you know for sure that women prefer big penises. Despite the fact that many men seem convinced of it, I don’t know if any studies have been done which prove it (might be fun to take part in a survey :stuck_out_tongue: – but I digress).


A few days ago I started a thread “Rape Fantasies”—female thing. There was a good response from females, but I do not recall any of the females discussing penis size in their rape fantasies. I think there may be a relationship between rape fantasies and female preference for large penises. My guess is that the fantasies will favor large penises over small penises.

The females I have talked to (without exception) make derogatory statements about small penises, and admirable statements about large penises. If they are representative of the female population, then sexual selection should be looked at more closely.

Steven Jay Gould, being an equalitarian, would probably like for every male to have a 5 inch penis, with the exception of his penis of course.

Originally posted by Yumanite

Sexual selection scenarios (how’s that for alliteration?) are also kind of plausible, as long as you know for sure that women prefer big penises. Despite the fact that many men seem convinced of it, I don’t know if any studies have been done which prove it (might be fun to take part in a survey :stuck_out_tongue: – but I digress).


A few days ago I started a thread “Rape Fantasies”—female thing. There was a good response from females, but I do not recall any of the females discussing penis size in their rape fantasies. I think there may be a relationship between rape fantasies and female preference for large penises. My guess is that the fantasies will favor large penises over small penises.

The females I have talked to (without exception) make derogatory statements about small penises, and admirable statements about large penises. If they are representative of the female population, then sexual selection should be looked at more closely.

Steven Jay Gould, being an equalitarian, would probably like for every male to have a 5 inch penis, with the exception of his penis of course.

grienspace quoted an article at
http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/artjan99/barnac.html:

Sir, I must protest!

Although non-vertebrates may have elongatable sex organs, this does not mean they have “penises.” The penis as we know it evolved with the reptiles. That means reptiles have wieners, dinosaurs had wieners, birds have wieners, and mammals have wieners – but amphibians, fish, and invertebrates do not!

Even if these other critters have something that looks and acts like a schlong, it isn’t a true schlong. (Those things that stick out of either side of a nurse shark while it’s mating? They ain’t penises.)

Pants! The scourge of human evolutionary progress!
Pope Bob
Church of Records of Her Favorite Blues