# Penn and Teller: Fool Us **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 12, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362 "2011-01-12T17:56:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/21 "2011-01-13T10:41:04Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > Would love to know how Archer did it. Any takers? > > Head to 0:45 of [this video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ROFrbxCGm4) to see Archer performing the same trick at a different gig (only shows the ending though). Perhaps he keeps taking money out of the the envelopes the entire time? He was very specific saying he didn’t put anything in them. And he did do a nice fake away where he almost ran away with the envelope. (And assume you later saw that **JKilez** ’s post has the entire routine.) ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/22 "2011-01-13T10:44:35Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Perhaps he keeps taking money out of the the envelopes the entire time? He was very specific saying he didn’t put anything in them. And he did do a nice fake away where he almost ran away with the envelope. > > (And assume you later saw that **JKilez** ’s post has the entire routine.) _EDIT_ Not a bad guess. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/23 "2011-01-13T10:50:53Z")
NETA: I realize I likely misunderstood **KellyCriterion** ’s intention. He probably wanted to show it a second time, to see if it was easier to catch. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/24 "2011-01-13T10:52:37Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > _EDIT_ > > Not a bad guess. Thanks for the edit. My guess before I edited was pretty stupid. ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/25 "2011-01-13T10:57:01Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Thanks for the edit. My guess before I edited was pretty stupid. Don’t worry, I’ll take it to the grave. _Except in the instance where someone is willing to trade it for the secret of Archer’s trick!_ ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/26 "2011-01-13T11:03:36Z")
I watched the full routine again ([link](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYfjCUeCPMM)), this time hawking Archer’s every move. A couple of things stood out. - 4:18: When Archer hands the envelope to the girl, he appears to do a quick, but strange kind of “shuffle” maneuver with his other hand. - 6:00: When Archer realises that the host is approaching him on stage, he appears to rather hurriedly and somewhat unnaturally “race” the remaining envelope (with the cash) in to his jacket pocket. That’s all I got. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/27 "2011-01-13T12:12:43Z")
Watch that Youtube video starting at 5:00. There’s something funny about the way he hands the envelope to the man in the audience. He’s holding them with one behind the other and hands him the one in the back. As he goes to pull it out from behind, he appears to first slide it a little further behind, and he glances down almost as if he’s checking his move. His statement “I can honestly say that I do not slide anything into anything” seems overly precise to me and ignores part of Penn’s proposed solution. Here’s what I think. He had an extra orange envelope, probably flap-less, that had the real money in it. He kept it hidden behind the others then, when he had one left and turned it over, he was pulling the money from the extra envelope which was aligned on the back of the real one (which of course had a zero dollar in it like the rest). ---
**Author:** ![singular1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ba9def/32.png) [@singular1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/singular1)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/28 "2011-01-13T12:31:43Z")
Is the whole show available online somewhere? We saw them in person a few weeks ago, and it was a delightful show. ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/29 "2011-01-13T12:48:35Z")
Yes, Google: _watch penn teller fool us_ Hit the first link. From that page, I chose the first link in green. Up until it started playing, the whole thing looked like a ploy to get me to click on some ads. But nope, the show loaded, and played. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/30 "2011-01-13T21:13:20Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > So…what is the name of the show? The same as the title of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Shark\_Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Shark\_Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shark_Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/31 "2011-01-13T21:23:11Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > The same as the title of the thread. Who’s on first? ---
**Author:** ![alexandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@alexandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alexandra)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/32 "2011-01-13T21:57:38Z")
> [@ianzin](#): > > It was a one-off show, but there are ongoing discussions about maybe repeating it four times a year. > > There were two routines that were deemed to have ‘fooled’ Penn & Teller. > > The close-up sleight-of-hand card routine that fooled them was performed by Ben Earl. Penn asserted that the routine used ‘false shuffles’. This was not strictly correct. Ben was legitimately shuffling the cards each time, but he was using other sleight-of-hand techniques to make the right cards (in this case Aces) appear at the right time. > > The five envelopes routines was invented and performed by John Archer. The routine itself is based on a standard pattern known in magic as ‘Just Chance’ (British name) or ‘Bank Nite’ (American name). In essence, a number of sealed envelopes are in play, only one of which contains something of value. Members of the audience are given the chance to choose envelopes, and yet somehow they never get the one envelope that contains the valuable prize. > > John’s method for this trick is his own, and relatively new (he has only been performing it for about 18 months). It is a radical departure from all the ‘standard’ ways of performing the trick, and does allow the trick to be presented in a remarkably ‘clean’ way not possible with previous methods. Penn asserted that at the last minute John had somehow ‘inserted’ the prize (in this case £100 in cash) into the one remaining envelope, and John was able to honestly say this was not the case. > > I know both Ben Earl and John Archer. I am familiar with the workings of the John Archer trick, because we worked together in a show last Summer featuring several magicians. He shared the method with us backstage. It is extremely clever. He has in fact published the method on a DVD available to the magic trade, but clearly it’s one that neither Penn nor Teller had seen yet. > > [Ben Earl’s website.](http://www.benjaminearl.com/) > > [John Archer’s website.](http://www.john-archer.com/JohnArcher/HOME.html) I really thought you were going to reveal how he did it. Damn you magicians and your loyalty! ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/33 "2011-01-13T22:02:18Z")
On Archer’s trick : [spoiler]Why assume there’s only £100 in the trick? It’s entirely possible that _every_ envelope has money in it. One thing I notice is that it really seems like he slips something in or out of each one before he gives it away. I believe him when he says he doesn’t slip anything in. Taking something out wouldn’t be too tough to do and there’s no need to guide anyone to a response. The tricky part, of course, is that there’s 20 bills to palm using this method. Keeping them clipped together probably works (also to separate them from the $0 bill) but I admit he’d have to be pretty good to pull all of that off. Plus, that’s an awful lot of money to stash just for a prop. But considering that it could fool these top magicians, an outrageous explanation like that may be the way to do it. [/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/34 "2011-01-13T22:04:34Z")
**ianzin** , you could probably kill my explanation with an answer to one question, which I’m actually curious about - are the envelopes sealed in his trick? It didn’t look like they were, but I would have expected them to be in a trick like that. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/35 "2011-01-13T22:13:50Z")
**panamajack** , I think my explanation in post #27 is more feasible. It certainly didn’t look to me like the envelopes were sealed. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/36 "2011-01-13T23:28:53Z")
> [@panamajack](#): > > On Archer’s trick : > > [spoiler]Why assume there’s only £100 in the trick? It’s entirely possible that _every_ envelope has money in it. One thing I notice is that it really seems like he slips something in or out of each one before he gives it away. I believe him when he says he doesn’t slip anything in. Taking something out wouldn’t be too tough to do and there’s no need to guide anyone to a response. > > The tricky part, of course, is that there’s 20 bills to palm using this method. Keeping them clipped together probably works (also to separate them from the $0 bill) but I admit he’d have to be pretty good to pull all of that off. Plus, that’s an awful lot of money to stash just for a prop. But considering that it could fool these top magicians, an outrageous explanation like that may be the way to do it. > [/spoiler] I had an idea, but it violates his statement that nothing is slipped into an envelope. I wondered if it was significant that he used 5 20-pound notes rather than a single 100-pound note. And there are 5 envelopes. So what if each envelope started with a single note, and he kept pulling them from the chosen envelopes and combining them into the final one? ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/37 "2011-01-13T23:29:03Z")
i think a 6th envelope complicates things. it’d be pretty easy to spot an extra envelope (especially for P&T?), especially given the way he was fanning the original 5 in the beginning. he couldn’t have taped the extra envelope(s) on because penn and teller examined the envelope afterwards. it’s certainly an INNOVATIVE trick. good for the guy. he’s doing it his way, and not copying other people, which is what penn and teller wanted to see in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/38 "2011-01-14T00:12:46Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > - 6:00: When Archer realises that the host is approaching him on stage, he appears to rather hurriedly and somewhat unnaturally “race” the remaining envelope (with the cash) in to his jacket pocket. While I’m not saying you’re not on to something, I interpret the hurried move as a way of merely getting rid of something that would prevent him from shaking hands with the host. Haven’t you had that happen to you? Your shaking hand has something in it and someone sticks out their hand before you are ready to respond? Of course, that may be all my part of the routine. I’m just saying that I didn’t find it suspicious (and I’m a very suspicious person). I’ll have to check out that video again, and I realize that it is possible that, even if I slow it down to single frames, because we never see 100% of Archer’s hands & body due to the video edit, there may be some vital evidence not evident or visible, whether due to an intentional edit or accidental. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/39 "2011-01-14T00:17:48Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > I had an idea, but it violates his statement that nothing is slipped into an envelope. I wondered if it was significant that he used 5 20-pound notes rather than a single 100-pound note. And there are 5 envelopes. So what if each envelope started with a single note, and he kept pulling them from the chosen envelopes and combining them into the final one? In the link in post #21 where only the reveal is shown, he pulls out (3) 20 pound notes to make 60 pounds. Since we don’t see the initial part of that version, I’d say that if he had 3 envelopes to start instead of 5, maybe you’ve hit on the method. Otherwise, it’s just inflation to go from 60 to 100 pounds and not important at all. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/40 "2011-01-14T00:35:59Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > i think a 6th envelope complicates things. it’d be pretty easy to spot an extra envelope (especially for P&T?), especially given the way he was fanning the original 5 in the beginning. he couldn’t have taped the extra envelope(s) on because penn and teller examined the envelope afterwards. > > it’s certainly an INNOVATIVE trick. good for the guy. he’s doing it his way, and not copying other people, which is what penn and teller wanted to see in the first place. Penn and Teller examined one of the envelopes he gave to the audience. Obviously the extra envelope wouldn’t have been on that one. He kept the extra envelope hidden behind the last one; the one he was left with. At least that’s my theory. I explained it in the spoiler in post #27. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362.md?page=3)