# Penn and Teller: Fool Us **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 12, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362 "2011-01-12T17:56:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/61 "2011-01-16T18:18:18Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I heard Penn talking on radio about the show before they went over to film it. He said his job would be to pretend he knew what he was talking about and then rely on Teller to tell him how it was done. it’s well documented that teller is by far the better magician, though penn is the better showman… and juggler? ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/62 "2011-01-16T18:19:13Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I heard Penn talking on radio about the show before they went over to film it. He said his job would be to pretend he knew what he was talking about and then rely on Teller to tell him how it was done. Exactly what I figured. Teller is the magic expert(and one of the finest in the world). Penn knows magic plenty, but without Teller there to tell him how it worked, Penn would be hopeless on some of these tricks. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/63 "2011-01-16T18:28:37Z")
> [@Pashnish\_Ewing](#): > > Occam could also make a case that P&T are charlatans by trade (I mean that in a good way), and that any presentation they make should be viewed with a skeptical eye. > " This. Occam is mildy useful for trying to determine whats going on when the thing going on isnt actively trying to fool you (like mother nature) or is analyzed after the fact (like solving a murder perhaps). But when you have one group trying to deceive another and perhaps both groups trying to decieve you (well three if you include advertisers) then I would go so far as to say not only is Occams of not much use, it might actually be harmful as a guide. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/64 "2011-01-16T20:00:14Z")
My guess would be the extra blank envelope with the money that can be shuffled behind the remaining envelopes as the trick progresses. Very easy to do. I think P&T may have been gracious in not throwing out a bunch of guesses that might have included the actual method, because they didn’t know exactly how it was done. They mentioned sliding the cash in, because that’s a common method used in envelope based prognostication tricks. And Penn readily admits that Teller is the superior magician. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/65 "2011-01-16T20:19:38Z")
That they were being gracious is exactly my take. When the first guess wasn’t exactly on the mark they didn’t want to appear to be sitting there throwing out random guesses until they got it right. This was true especially with Archer. He gave a half-denial to their guess by saying that he didn’t slide anything into anything. That pretty much confirmed that the other part of their guess was likely correct - that there was an extra envelope. At that point they were stuck with either saying they were stumped or appearing to be guessing by playing a game of 20 questions. The problem with that is that it makes the whole thing come down to a matter of luck as to whether or not they got your exact method on the first guess, but they were between a rock and a hard place. ---
**Author:** ![sohvan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/96bed5/32.png) [@sohvan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sohvan)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/66 "2011-01-16T20:34:59Z")
John Archer posted the following over at the [magic cafe forums](http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=397047&forum=62&start=30): > [@](#): > > Hi Guys, > > Thanks for all the kind comments and much appreciated. I am not going to go into the why’s and wherefores of the show or indeed why I did it. After the show (We were kept well away from them beforehand) Penn and Teller were very sweet and encouraging about my routine. I showed Teller the exact method and he was gracious enough to say it was “so much better than he had imagined”. I don’t think they were in any way threatened by my performance or dismissive of it on the show. They were doing what they do, being controversial and rattling the cage a little. I think they saw the funny side of being fooled with 5 envelopes. The guess they made, though wrong is what most intelligent lay people would (and indeed sometimes do) offer as a solution, impractical though that would be. I had no problem wit what was aired. A huge amount of exposure and discussion which took place during recording never made it to the final broadcast and that was definitely due in a great part to the wishes of Penn and Teller. > I am not sure if it is healthy to encourage an audience to watch a magic show where the emphasis is purely on the how, but as someone has said a lot of the laypeople watched the show without even considering that in this particular case because they had two experts there to worry about that for them. > > A difficult dilemma but an interesting one. > > John So there was a lot more discussion about the mechanics of the trick that was cut, but they still couldn’t figure out the right method. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/67 "2011-01-16T20:49:35Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > That they were being gracious is exactly my take. When the first guess wasn’t exactly on the mark they didn’t want to appear to be sitting there throwing out random guesses until they got it right. > > This was true especially with Archer. He gave a half-denial to their guess by saying that he didn’t slide anything into anything. That pretty much confirmed that the other part of their guess was likely correct - that there was an extra envelope. At that point they were stuck with either saying they were stumped or appearing to be guessing by playing a game of 20 questions. > > The problem with that is that it makes the whole thing come down to a matter of luck as to whether or not they got your exact method on the first guess, but they were between a rock and a hard place. i think that’s the thing right there - they’re guessing. with the other acts, they knew EXACTLY what was going on. No guessing necessary. The fact that P&T had to guess meant they didn’t know, and when they didn’t know, they’re really no better than the rest of us on this forum offering 6th envelope theories, and the like. wasn’t that what P&T set out for? to be amazed and stumped like the rest of us? sure they have theories, but everyone who doesn’t believe that it was straight up magic has theories. whether or not those theories are right or not is moot because there was DOUBT in P&T’s mind. The fact that they checked the envelope meant they were stumped and needed clues as to what was going on. they didn’t have to check the chicken/goose act, they didn’t have to check the cards from the slight-of-hand guy, they didn’t check the shrinking apparatus - because they knew what was going on. with this, they were stumped, and when they were stumped, they (correctly and graciously) allowed Archer to go to vegas. yeah? no conspiracy theories? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/68 "2011-01-16T21:15:49Z")
You have to consider that just because P&T didn’t know the exact mechanism of this particular trick doesn’t mean they couldn’t figure out how to do the trick themselves. There’s probably many ways to do it, so they picked the mostly likely one and were wrong. The same is true for the closeup magician. They thought he was doing false shuffles, but he wasn’t. But if you could achieve the same result with false shuffles, that’s a perfectly good guess. In this case, it appears the guy was shuffle tracking. Or at least that’s what he claims. There could easily be another trick involved, and the magician says he tracks the cards because A) it sounds more impressive and B) it keeps people from looking elsewhere and spotting the real trick. In any event, it was great. And it represents the best thing about magic - always keeping the audience off guard and guessing. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/69 "2011-01-16T21:39:50Z")
A slight hijack I suppose. Is there any trick done by a magician where the others pretty much all go “man, we have no damn idea how he does that?” ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/70 "2011-01-16T22:02:15Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > A slight hijack I suppose. > > Is there any trick done by a magician where the others pretty much all go “man, we have no damn idea how he does that?” Not exactly a direct answer, but I always recall this (quoting from [wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Slydini#Style)): > [@](#): > > …Dick Cavett once asked Dai Vernon who could still fool him. His answer: nobody but Slydini This [article](http://www.hellblazer.com/2003/12/the-art-of-misdirection.html) and the external links from the wiki can give you an idea of the respect Slydini was given by other magicians, and his incredible skill at close-up sleight of hand and misdirection. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/71 "2011-01-16T22:19:06Z")
if P&T were blind guessing? they would probably eventually stumble onto the answer. however, it’s not blind. for the shuffler, they were actively watching his hands. they watched the other closeup guy as well and knew CONFIDENTLY what he was doing. the a-ha moment came probably halfway through the trick. with the envelope trick, there was no a-ha moment. they were checking envelopes, fumbling with questions, etc. that’s the difference between having an inkling and flat out KNOWING. while i’m sure p&t could very well figure out the envelope trick themselves, or even come up with better methods EVENUTALLY, it’s not the same as “i’ve seen this before.” a halfbaked analogy would be… the new magicians being mathematicians and writing out proofs. there’s a difference between able to follow a proof and having seen the proof before and knowing what the next step is before it’s even written. P&T were asking “do you use some sort of… substitution? did you change the coordinate system?” rather than “oh yeah. i’ve seen this before. it’s the BLAH BLAH BLAH proof.” ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/72 "2011-01-17T02:19:03Z")
Yeah, I get the point. If they’re blind guessing then he’s fooled them. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/73 "2011-01-17T06:58:17Z")
If there is a sixth envelope, how does he keep them together perfectly at the end, which is in close-up? I watched him count out the money and put the envelope away and if there was another envelope, it was in alignment even when he shook it. It’s fun to guess about this stuff. Congrats to the magician. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/74 "2011-01-17T08:02:05Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > You have to consider that just because P&T didn’t know the exact mechanism of this particular trick doesn’t mean they couldn’t figure out how to do the trick themselves. There’s probably many ways to do it, so they picked the mostly likely one and were wrong. Exactly. This is Penn and Teller, the act that invented a new method of the Cups and Balls, which is probably the oldest trick in the book and roughly equal to inventing an entirely new sex act. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/75 "2011-01-17T09:58:36Z")
Maybe it only works 20% of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/76 "2011-01-17T14:37:41Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > Exactly. This is Penn and Teller, the act that invented a new method of the Cups and Balls … Did they? First I’ve heard of it. I’ve seen them show how the trick works by performing with clear cups. I didn’t see anhy new methods. ---
**Author:** ![Lanzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/74df32/32.png) [@Lanzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lanzy)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/77 "2011-01-17T16:01:24Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > If there is a sixth envelope, how does he keep them together perfectly at the end, which is in close-up? I watched him count out the money and put the envelope away and if there was another envelope, it was in alignment even when he shook it. > > It’s fun to guess about this stuff. Congrats to the magician. I would suppose it is similar to a 2 or 3 lift with playing cards, lots of practise makes it an excellent illusion. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/78 "2011-01-17T16:03:45Z")
> [@Lanzy](#): > > I would suppose it is similar to a 2 or 3 lift with playing cards, lots of practise makes it an excellent illusion. you can palm a playing card. you can’t palm an envelope. plus, as i said earlier, he fans out the envelopes at multiple times throughout the act, which would be darn near impossible to keep the envelopes in check. if he DOES manage to somehow keep the 6th envelope perfectly aligned throughout the entire act, then that is one of the more impressive slight of hand feats ever. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/79 "2011-01-17T16:05:46Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Maybe it only works 20% of the time. I have to admit, my first thought was that he could probably get the odds well over 50% with no trickery whatsoever: 1. Somebody will always pick “Sex” right off the bat. (This is virtually guaranteed anyway, but you can make it even more of a sure thing by calling on youngish men. Which Archer does, in the first round, and gets the expected result.) 2. Someone will probably also go for “Nothing” early in the act, as this is the other obvious joke (and the whole comedy routine tends to get people into the frame of mind where they _want_ to play along and make the obvious jokes). 3. The other three envelopes are trickier, but by this point he’s probably got a fairly good read on the people in the front row, and he’s got an extended bit of patter before each person picks – which gives him a chance to study their reactions and, if necessary, engage in a bit of non-obvious manipulation. If he’s really, really good at reading body language, he probably knows which envelope each person is leaning towards _before_ they state their choice, and can choose either to let them pick at once, or to muddy the waters a bit more by engaging in the extended fake-out routine he does with the last person. I don’t think this IS how he does it, because I doubt he’d be going on TV with this trick if the odds weren’t 100%, but I bet he could have an impressively high success rate with a completely honest version. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362/80 "2011-01-17T17:40:23Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > I have to admit, my first thought was that he could probably get the odds well over 50% with no trickery whatsoever: > > 1. Somebody will always pick “Sex” right off the bat. (This is virtually guaranteed anyway, but you can make it even more of a sure thing by calling on youngish men. Which Archer does, in the first round, and gets the expected result.) Except one of the videos that someone linked to has Archer with “SEX” as the last envelope. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-and-teller-fool-us/567362.md?page=5)