# Penn Jillette: Religious folk SHOULD proseletyze?!?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2008, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-jillette-religious-folk-should-proseletyze/477823 "2008-12-18T23:14:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-jillette-religious-folk-should-proseletyze/477823/41 "2008-12-19T17:15:31Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I’m not sure why an afterlife should be more important than this life. Can you elaborate on that? Because IF you buy into the cosmology, the afterlife lasts a whole hell of a lot longer than this one. ---
**Author:** ![Vaderesque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e274bd/32.png) [@Vaderesque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vaderesque)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-jillette-religious-folk-should-proseletyze/477823/42 "2008-12-19T17:17:22Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I’m not sure why an afterlife should be more important than this life. Can you elaborate on that? Because it lasts for ever and ever and ever. And then, when you think it must be over, you realise it’s only just begun. So, basically, a long time, would be the summary. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-jillette-religious-folk-should-proseletyze/477823/43 "2008-12-19T17:21:35Z")
I dunno…forever kind of takes the “duration” out of time, if you get my drift. There is no time, if it’s forever, it just is. But that doesn’t have anything to do with “importance.” What kind of job will you have? Do you get new skills when you transition to the other side? Do you hang with your friends and family? Do you play canasta? I’m just not sure what the expectation is once I get there. I can make it as important or frivolous or hedonistic as I want, can’t I? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-jillette-religious-folk-should-proseletyze/477823/44 "2008-12-19T17:23:43Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I dunno…forever kind of takes the “duration” out of time, if you get my drift. There is no time, if it’s forever, it just is. But that doesn’t have anything to do with “importance.” What kind of job will you have? Do you get new skills when you transition to the other side? Do you hang with your friends and family? Do you play canasta? I’m just not sure what the expectation is once I get there. I can make it as important or frivolous or hedonistic as I want, can’t I? Depends. In the Biblical Christian version of Heaven, you’ll (literally) sing the praises of God all the livelong eternity and _you’ll like it_! Sound good? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-jillette-religious-folk-should-proseletyze/477823/45 "2008-12-19T17:28:03Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Depends. In the Biblical Christian version of Heaven, you’ll (literally) sing the praises of God all the livelong eternity and _you’ll like it_! Sound good? Uh, yeah. I’m giddy with anticipation. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-jillette-religious-folk-should-proseletyze/477823/46 "2008-12-19T17:28:38Z")
The afterlife is not a sequence of moments that happens to be endless. Rather, it is a place without time. The common misconception seems to arise from cartoons and other unworthy sources, not from any sound understanding of the issue. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-jillette-religious-folk-should-proseletyze/477823/47 "2008-12-19T17:29:19Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > I’m not going to watch the video twice, but I thought he said he had always said the opposite. > > I’m surprised he thought the psalms are in the new testament. Was that a joke? He did not seem to be in a joking mood at all, but that did puzzle me. Especially for a man who has admitted to taking as many full Gideon Bibles as he can from hotel rooms, and using them to hold up furniture, etc. Something tells me he’s going to be treating that pocket NT/Pslms/Prvbs with more respect. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-jillette-religious-folk-should-proseletyze/477823/48 "2008-12-19T17:30:01Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I dunno…forever kind of takes the “duration” out of time, if you get my drift. There is no time, if it’s forever, it just is. But that doesn’t have anything to do with “importance.” What kind of job will you have? Do you get new skills when you transition to the other side? Do you hang with your friends and family? Do you play canasta? I’m just not sure what the expectation is once I get there. I can make it as important or frivolous or hedonistic as I want, can’t I? I think the idea is it will be a completely different kind of existence. You won’t be able to relate it to anything you’re experiencing now, except maybe as a vague analogy. YOu won’t have a body, at least not one like you have now. Words like “hedonism” or “frivolity” or “job” or “family” won’t have any meaning. It will either be an eternity of transcendant joy or transcendant suffering. Or so I’ve been told. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-jillette-religious-folk-should-proseletyze/477823/49 "2008-12-19T17:38:13Z")
Do I have a memory? Do I remember what my Earthly existence was? If it’s a completely different existence, will I know I’m floating blissfully along or being endlessly tortured (thanks, loving god!!!)? Will I have anything to compare my existence to? ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-jillette-religious-folk-should-proseletyze/477823/50 "2008-12-19T17:43:23Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > “You should evangelise always. Occaisionally you may need to use words”. > > If you have to _tell_ people you’re a member of a particular faith, you’re probably doing it wrong. Except that I can do good deeds, be helpful & compassionate, etc. and be an adherent of a whole range of philosophies. Heck, I can do these things & be a fervent Ayn Rand Objectivist. BUT if I believe my good nature is due to my adherence to a certain POV that would benefit everyone, then I should specify what POV that is. Something about Judaism being non-proselytizing- that was not necessarily always the case. Around the first centuries BCE to CE, there seems to have been Hillel-esque efforts to win Graeco-Romans to Noachic Monotheism. And there is presently a similar effort in some Hasidic groups, I think the Lubavitchers (it was a project from the late Rabbi Schneerson, IIRC). The Judaic non-proselytizing policy came about due to the brutal responses to such efforts from the Imperial Christian authorities . ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-jillette-religious-folk-should-proseletyze/477823/51 "2008-12-19T17:52:10Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Do I have a memory? Do I remember what my Earthly existence was? > > If it’s a completely different existence, will I know I’m floating blissfully along or being endlessly tortured (thanks, loving god!!!)? Will I have anything to compare my existence to? Well, again, you’re asking the wrong person here, but I’ve heard all sorts of explanations. Basically the way “you” experience things will be so radically different that no concept or word can describe it. You won’t float or move but neither will you stand still. The entire concept of motion won’t be relevant anymore, tied as it is to physics, biology, and the laws of the universe. Even the word eternity is misleading as it implies time, which will no longer have meaning. The eternal bliss comes from being in God’s presence, the torment comes from the absence of God. Of course, there’s also the Jack Chick idea. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-jillette-religious-folk-should-proseletyze/477823/52 "2008-12-19T19:05:10Z")
So many gods, so many heavens, so many hells. I’m sure you can see how an atheist could find this endlessly amusing. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-jillette-religious-folk-should-proseletyze/477823/53 "2008-12-19T19:19:06Z")
What would y’all think about taking the discussion of “Christian Afterlife views” into a new thread? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-jillette-religious-folk-should-proseletyze/477823/54 "2008-12-19T19:20:40Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > What would y’all think about taking the discussion of “Christian Afterlife views” into a new thread? I’m in, but can’t it be “all” afterlife views? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-jillette-religious-folk-should-proseletyze/477823/55 "2008-12-19T20:07:47Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I’m in, but can’t it be “all” afterlife views? I want to be reborn as a woman’s horse saddle. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-jillette-religious-folk-should-proseletyze/477823/56 "2008-12-19T20:08:05Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > “You should evangelise always. Occaisionally you may need to use words”. The actual quote is from St. Francis of Assisi: “Preach the Gospel at all times. If necessary, use words.” It’s one of my favorite quotes. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-jillette-religious-folk-should-proseletyze/477823/57 "2008-12-19T20:59:56Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Except that I can do good deeds, be helpful & compassionate, etc. and be an adherent of a whole range of philosophies. Heck, I can do these things & be a fervent Ayn Rand Objectivist. BUT if I believe my good nature is due to my adherence to a certain POV that would benefit everyone, then I should specify what POV that is. > > Something about Judaism being non-proselytizing- that was not necessarily always the case. Around the first centuries BCE to CE, there seems to have been Hillel-esque efforts to win Graeco-Romans to Noachic Monotheism. And there is presently a similar effort in some Hasidic groups, I think the Lubavitchers (it was a project from the late Rabbi Schneerson, IIRC). The Judaic non-proselytizing policy came about due to the brutal responses to such efforts from the Imperial Christian authorities . As far as I know, the Lubavichers exclusively prosthelitize other Jews. [http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F04E7DF1638F930A25757C0A9659C8B63](http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F04E7DF1638F930A25757C0A9659C8B63) > [@](#): > > In his dimwitted way, the questioner has expressed an insight at the heart of this accomplished book. The Lubavitcher sect of Hasidim, to which the outreach squad belongs, resembles nothing more than a Jewish version of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Both require missionary work of their faithful; both have grown strikingly by attracting newcomers with their living example of wholesome, encompassing, fundamentalist community. **But while the Mormons seek out any convert, the Lubavitchers proselytize only their fellow Jews, especially the unaffiliated and less observant.** I don’t think that the non-prostheletizing policy came about because of persecution. In my opinion, it seems more likely that it came about because Judiasm is essentially a tribal, national religion - some sects of course _did_ believe in breaking that national bond and proselytizing: the most famous of which abandoned the markers of tribal ethno-nationality like circumcision and keeping Kosher - they are today known as “Christians”. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-jillette-religious-folk-should-proseletyze/477823/58 "2008-12-19T21:23:46Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > You’ll have to explain this one. > > Do you disagree with the notion that if the interpretation that there’s an eternal heaven or hell is correct, that anything that leads to one or the other would be far more important than anything else in life? I guess nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. They believed eternal salvation of the soul was much more important than eartly life and so, if you had to burn heretics at the stake, well, that was well worth it. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-jillette-religious-folk-should-proseletyze/477823/59 "2008-12-20T00:54:48Z")
Keep in mind I’m not advocating that view. I’m not religious. But if they were true believers (and I doubt everyone was - most were going with the group, afraid of persecution, and some were sadistic assholes) - then it’s a logical extension of their belief system. If they could guarantee someone salvation (and avoidance of hell) through torture and killing, then for that belief system they were doing a far greater good. Of course, in the real world, it’s all bunk, and all they commited was evil - but those actions are in a twisted way more humane than believing everyone will go to hell and not trying to stop it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-jillette-religious-folk-should-proseletyze/477823/60 "2008-12-20T01:42:18Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Christianity and Islam are standing in the corner looking pretty guilty right about now. Pretty much like Democracy and Communism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-jillette-religious-folk-should-proseletyze/477823.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/penn-jillette-religious-folk-should-proseletyze/477823.md?page=4)